00:01Ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the midday Market Monitor
00:06One second, my camera's a little bit off
00:08But that being said, the S&P 500 is up 0.3% on the Fed rate hike day, as well as the Nasdaq being up 0.67%, actually giving a lot of that credit to some of the tech names that are up
00:30Nvidia is up 1.7% today, at 21,578
00:36Still pretty cheap compared to where we've been recently
00:38WeBull is down 8.3%
00:44Bullish, Wealthfront, Chime, Circle — a lot of crypto and fintech names are down very sharply as Ethereum continues to fall, and we're back to 2,300 on Ethereum
01:00Now, to be fair to Ethereum, we also saw Chairman Mike Celeski of the CFTC come out and say, although we have seen the Clarity Act
01:09Be lost
01:14Okay
01:19They said the Americans deserve regulatory clarity, legal certainty, and consumer protections in crypto asset markets
01:25President Trump promised to deliver a future-proof crypto asset regulatory market structure, one way or the other, and we will help him get that job done using our existing statutory authorities
01:37The US is and will remain the crypto capital of the world
01:40The CFTC is locked in and ready to ship, sorry, my camera's in the way
01:46Ready to ship its rules for the next frontier of finance
01:49Michael S
01:51Cohn, chairman of the CFTC
01:54So, a strong response, uh, saying, you know, although it might not be pushed through the Senate, we actually have a lot of authority
02:08ourselves as well as the SEC, or the SEC, and um, Paul Atkins is also quite bullish on crypto as well
02:18So, ladies and gentlemen, this is the theme of the day
02:22Okay, we are going to go through not only some of the stocks and news like we do every single day, but I have some stories prepped that I wanted to talk about
02:36The reason for my really bullish remarks yesterday with Stephen Fiorillo around trying to talk him into some form of investing in Nubank is not that I need him to do that or whatever, just, you know, friends talking about, oh my gosh, bro, you need to check out this stock
02:55And the reason why I was so focused on this name is I've been doing a lot of research into them, and they've had a lot of recent..
03:05Announcements that have got me very excited
03:07Now, nothing is going to be more exciting than what's to come in the future
03:10December 8th, I believe, or maybe December 9th, Nubank is going to have an Investor Day
03:16That'll be a very exciting day for me
03:18I'll be streaming the entire event and hopefully that will show some additional details about their stock because they believe that it's extremely undervalued right now and that Wall Street is not treating this business properly
03:29But aside from that, they've been doing a lot of press releases, podcasts, and overall news statements about what's to come in the future of that business that I don't think anyone is really paying attention to
03:37Okay
03:45I I don't know of many other creators or, uh, people online that are even talking about Nubank
03:53So, I'm going to carry that flag and continue to do so as long as the business, in my view, has some of the cheapest rates we've ever seen in this company's history
04:03And that's where I believe we are today
04:06Not necessarily in the share price
04:08It's been lower before, or sorry, it's been lower before, but it's also been higher
04:13Mainly based on the overall amount of growth of this company, the net income they are actually generating per quarter, and the amount of revenue they are able to bookmark quite a lot
04:26This is when I get most excited to talk about companies—it's not necessarily whenever They're winning
04:31It's whenever they are winning fundamentally, but the stock is not performing this way
04:35That's why I've been talking a lot about Micron, talking about a lot about Nvidia, and many of these companies that are not necessarily the ones that have just recently 20x'd
04:44It's mainly about the companies that, well, I mean, Micron and Nvidia have done well over the last three to five years, but they've continued to perform well, and those stocks have stagnated, with valuations that have turned out to get much cheaper over time
04:59Like Meta, for example, obviously Meta versus when you scroll back — yes, they are up, but comparatively to where they could be, that's really what I'm looking at with Meta
05:06has had a lot of news today
05:14Not only did Citi reiterate a $800 price target, but they've also been pushing more and more of their Meta products
05:22So, Meta is going all in on their own artificial intelligence models while not giving up on some of their other initiatives
05:30For example, their smart glasses are now planning to launch a camera-free version called Luna, which will have the speaker and AI built in
05:40So, you'll be able to tap it or talk into it to get questions answered immediately, but it's not going to be based on what it sees around you
05:50Okay? So, a little bit less invasive, but still brings that Meta intelligence directly to the person without having to pull out their phone
05:54I don't know how that sells
05:59I'm not
06:03I'm interested in buying that myself, but we'll have to see
06:08Now, one of the bigger stories that we've seen over the last couple of days, and this is one I don't think many people have been focusing on, is that OpenAI is now considering a new funding round at a $1.2 trillion valuation
06:22Okay, they're in early talks about this valuation
06:26This would be up from $852 billion, so it's roughly a 50% increase from their last valuation
06:37The last valuation round was in April 2024, or sorry, April 2025, if I believe
06:45So we're just about six months, maybe five months, since that previous round, and they are seeing an additional 50% increase in their overall valuation
06:56The reason for this is..
06:58That Astra has done better than anyone could have imagined
07:00Okay, here are two slides that I wanted to show you
07:05Um, I'll pull them both up
07:09This was from RAMP, uh, and showing off some of their things
07:13And then another one was from Open Router
07:14So, two massive names in the AI, you know, token space, where they're actually tracking all the token spend
07:24Um, OpenAI versus Anthropic wallet share
07:29And what you ended up seeing is this moment where, uh, OpenAI has gone from an extremely low amount of overall spend
07:39I mean, you were looking at like 20% before, from some of their lowest models
07:45Now, into September, we're seeing roughly breaking upon almost 50% of the overall spend
07:53Okay
08:02In the next breath, you can see the same
08:06This is specifically on enterprise AI spend share
08:10I think this will likely surprise a lot of people, because whenever you see that ramp, it has actually indicated that more people are spending on Astra than they are on Fable models
08:14Now, this is specifically for the all-time high frontier models
08:19This is not total spend in terms of how much you spend on Opus, Sonnette, or other models like 5.6, Soul
08:23Nothing of that is being accounted for here
08:25The spike into no enterprise share is because Fable, if you guys remember, was launched and then taken down by the government, waited a little bit, and then they published a more nerfed model due to some of their cybersecurity concerns
08:43That’s why you see that bump in performance there
08:45Fable, and then you see this, roughly almost 8 to 10% share of enterprise spend is being allocated at the highest level
08:54Fable 5.1, and then Astra comes out of nowhere starting in September, absolutely blasting past that and working its way towards 15% of the total enterprise AI spend, specifically on their highest-end model where the most amount of money is being made
09:10Okay, so this is unbelievable
09:15Um, OpenAI has come out of nowhere, not only because of the launch of Astra, but also because of the overall use
09:24Once you're on Astra and you're signing up for ChatGPT, now you're starting to not just use Astra, you're using Fable 5.6 Soul
09:31And later on in the month, we're also going to see GPT-6 Soul Terra Luna
09:36And then we should see another explosion there of some of the bigger models that are being posted
09:44So big gains from OpenAI, which just back in January was doing 20% share of overall enterprise spend, now looking to be more like 50% versus Claude
09:58Okay
10:01I think that's extremely interesting
10:05By the way, FOMC will be live on this channel
10:06We'll be watching that
10:08That's at 2 PM
10:10Okay
10:12At 2:30, Kevin Worsch actually steps on stage
10:15So we'll know the decision at 2
10:17We will hear what he has to say, whether that is, you know, no rate hike and extremely hawkish commentary
10:32I think that the market would end up rallying on that news if we didn't see a hike
10:37That's not the shared consensus from Some of the Wall Street investors
10:43JP Morgan actually said that the S&P 500 is likely to drop 1.5% if the rates do not move
10:51That if Powell doesn't act right now, that is what's going to cause dramatic fear, which I thought was surprising
11:01What I think is also a very likely rally is that if we have a rate hike, which is by far the likely scenario here, then he ends up sharing a lot of dovish commentary
11:18Okay, while we are doing a hike today, you know, we could see pauses, and a lot of the forward data is actually showing that we do not need to continue going forward, assuming that this is the 125 basis point hike that's needed
11:32That's a possibility as well, which could end up keeping us in line here and that the markets could rally even further
11:36On a hike
11:39But I was surprised by JP Morgan expecting the S&P to drop so much
11:43They said 1.25% to 1.75%
11:48So, the 1.5% was, you know, averaging it out
11:54Okay
11:59Um, yes, the mustache is going to be streaming it
12:03Yeah, that is true
12:06Okay
12:10Um, now do we want to jump into Nvidia talk first or Nubank talk first? I think Nubank
12:17What do you guys say? We're doing both regardless
12:22You're not going to talk me out of it
12:23All right
12:27It's happening
12:30Nubank is an unbelievable opportunity right now, and people are not appreciating it
12:33You know what? We ended up seeing is that Nubank—I'll do Nubank first
12:42I want to do Nubank first
12:44I'm already interested because someone posted Revolut versus Nubank, and I love that
12:50Comparison, because Revolut, well, they're making, I mean, just a drastically lower amount of revenue, and they're growing really well, but it's not like some unbelievable blowout
13:01Everyone points to the number of countries they're in
13:04Oh my gosh, they're in, you know, 34 different countries
13:05That's why they deserve to win
13:07Well, the total number of users on their platform is something like 75 million, whereas NuBank is in three countries and has 139 million customers
13:18And so, that concentration for NuBank, I think, is the dominant force, where Revolut is not even looking to get any customers in Brazil, Mexico, Colombia — they're already, you know, well established in the markets of Ricardo Libres or, you know, NuBank
13:37World
13:40But the valuation on Revolut is something like, I think it was a little over a hundred billion, maybe even 120 billion in private markets
13:45I think if that was a public company, it would be valued much higher
13:50Similar concept with Stripe
13:55A lot of the payment companies ended up going public and becoming oversold once they were listed
13:59Chime was one of these fintech companies as well
14:02This company blasted onto the market at like a $44 billion or $45 billion share price, and then the market ended up selling it down to 16 billion
14:10Public markets have been extremely brutal in financial services recently
14:16And the reason why Stripe and Revolut hold such large premiums is not that they wouldn't maintain premiums in public markets as well
14:21Well, but I mean the just outrageously high valuations, I believe, are because they're not in public markets being tested against direct peers in the market, which you can find great peers like Adyen or NuBank, Revolut, and many others, you know
14:44But the reason why NuBank is in discussion right now, or why I'm so focused on this name, is because they've recently changed their strategy and expanded their overall total addressable market
14:56I wanted to talk to you guys about this because of the sheer size in which they've expanded this opportunity
15:02They have a new catalyst, and that catalyst leads to opportunities in the stock, and the stock is not budging right now
15:09As even right now, we just got, uh, one of..
15:11Their largest competitors
15:12This is actually kind of funny
15:13A bank, one of the larger banks in Brazil, Itau, put a downgrade on Nubank that sent the stock down over 3.5%, and they said that the company is extremely strong in the short term
15:30They also said that the company is likely to do extremely well in the long term, but they mentioned that the medium term isn't looking so good and it's a little shaky
15:34What does that even mean? Now, I do actually agree slightly, but the fact that you're issuing a downgrade because of a slight bump in their margins in the midterm, due to their spending for future performance, is extremely surprising
15:50It's literally a direct competitor pricing them in the market
15:52Now, let's..
15:56Let's talk about this new catalyst that Nubank has
15:59Okay, Nubank takes the next steps into international expansion with the launch in the United States and the introduction of Nubank Global
16:07Nubank Global is their ability to get into remittance payments, transfer of money, opening up bank accounts using stablecoins
16:16And they're doing this in 35 separate countries starting like that, using cryptocurrency
16:20Okay, that has nothing to do with what I want to talk to you guys about, but it just goes to show you that this major opportunity that they just opened up is not even in the realm of the valuation that I'm about to give to you guys
16:32What I’m going to be focusing on here is the one country, the United States, for which this is
16:37Not a small addition
16:42They got, uh, conditionally approved for a nationally chartered bank license back in January of 2026
16:46Okay, one of the fastest, uh, you know, applications for an actual bank license that the United States has ever given out, and that's due to new bank size and scale
16:59They're a 60-plus, 70-plus billion dollar business
17:01Okay, that has operated in Brazil, Mexico, and Colombia, serving over 139 million customers
17:07But the opportunity is very interesting in the United States
17:12And I want to let NuBank's co-founders talk about why they're entering the United States
17:17So, let's have a listen
17:19>> Clearly, they haven't run out of space to grow in Brazil, Mexico, and Colombia
17:22They're doing so well
17:25Why would They even, you know, go try to do the US, which is so hard
17:31It's a big bet
17:38Aren't they going to get distracted? How do you think about that? And how do you see us mitigating that risk on our day-to-day operations and how we run the company? >> So, there is still so much growth left in core markets, right? We have close to 120 million customers in Brazil, about 7% market share
17:44So, if you start thinking about the opportunity in Brazil, then the fact that in Mexico we're even smaller
17:49We're already the largest digital bank in the country, but we only have about 60 million customers
17:53And in Colombia, we're in the early days
17:57You can make the calculation that we could just double or triple our business just in Latin America alone
18:01And then you start..
18:03Adding US opportunity and global opportunity, there is significant, substantial potential upside
18:10Execution is key
18:18And I think the way we've executed every new country—from Brazil, which we launched with 10 people and a million dollars, to Mexico, which we launched with about 40-50 people and $10 million, or Colombia and now the US—I mean, how many people do you have in your team? >> Yeah, around 60, more or less
18:26 >> It's a team of 60 people out of 10,000 that are very focused on an amazing opportunity
18:30That is the way we like to try to execute because this is effectively buying a lot of call options on future opportunities
18:36A lot of the focus and priority continues to be, as you really said, on core and even Brazil
18:43Today, while we have close to 120 million customers, we only have 7% of the market share
18:48So, the way we think about it is we're building a lot of interoperable apps
18:53Brazil continues to see a lot of that growth, then you get Mexico, then Colombia, then the US, and other markets
18:59The majority of the company continues to focus on executing in those core markets
19:07>> So, I like what David, the actual founder of the business, said
19:14Well, they're co-founders, Christina and David
19:16David is the current CEO, and what I love that he talks about there are the S-curves
19:24Okay, that we are taking a 60-person team out of their 10,000 employees, grabbing their absolute best
19:27And Christina..
19:31Actually, she moved her entire family and operations to Miami
19:35So, she's all in on the United States venture
19:38She's number two on the entire team, but they want to target a quite large market without interfering with their current operations
19:48Okay, so it's completely separate
19:50While they do use a lot of technology and, in the same way they tackled other markets, that's what they're doing here
19:59But that's what they did in Mexico with 40 people, and now they're the largest digital bank in Mexico with over 16 million users
20:07So, that same operation is what they've done three times over and have become the largest financial institution or digital institution in those three countries
20:16Continue
20:25The country population for the United States is about 341 million, or 342 million, versus Brazil, Mexico, and Colombia, which makes it almost a doubling in their total addressable market in terms of the people they are targeting
20:33Okay, this is one of the interesting things because in Brazil they have over 100 million, nearly 120 million users, right? So they have over 60% of the adult population in Brazil as their active user base, using their services on a day-to-day basis
20:50Debit cards, credit cards, payroll loans, personal loans, the usual banking activities that you'd like to see, including investing, small business, and medium-sized businesses
21:01So, once they enter a market, they expand rapidly
21:06Their total product opportunities encompass all things in financial services
21:11Currently, as they're entering the United States, they're doing so with a very small team and very limited funding, but they are launching with a credit card, debit card, bank account, and a very, very interesting 4.5% APY offering, which is unlike what you're going to see even at SoFi, Chime, or Robinhood
21:31I mean, those are some of the best rates you'll find across the entire country
21:33So, who is going to use Nubank? Who are they targeting? What are they going after? This is one of the interesting things
21:40I'll let the CEOs or co-founders take it from here as well
21:44>> Chris, who do you think might be the first key target? Customers here in the US? >> Yeah
21:50So, we're very excited, first about our own customers, right? Like, you know how many customers from Brazil, Mexico, Colombia have maybe moved to the US for work, for family, for school
21:58They have been asking us to come here because they are accustomed to us; they got to know us in their home countries, and then they came here and faced all this bureaucracy, bad service, and all the fees
22:12So, of course, they are very eager to bank with us here in the US
22:16Their own users will be the people who will use their app
22:23The reason I highlighted this is because I think many new fintechs trying to enter this market, who are starting from nothing, will… They have a very hard time
22:27They have to create a new strategy
22:31They have to find new customers
22:35Nubank, especially for the Hispanic population in the United States, which is quite sizable, already knows Nubank
22:44They're one of the most recognizable brands in Latin America, being the second-largest company in financial services there, aside from Mercado Libre
22:50However, Mercado Libre is more of an e-commerce platform, but whenever you're looking at the overall operation, like I said, they are operating within a population of 139 million people
23:01There is a massive number of people who use Nubank in other countries, and some of those people need to come to America
23:10Okay, it's a good way to get started
23:12That's not the end
23:14The goal, however, okay? The end goal is to grow the same way that they ended up growing in Mexico
23:19Take the initial audience that knows you and then grow from there
23:24Start to work through the referrals, wait lists, all the things that they've tried out and tested that have become, you know, viral sensations for them, making Nubank the largest financial services platform in all of Latin America
23:36And do that here in the United States
23:39Okay
23:42The same way that you've done this in previous countries
23:45>> Unlike Mexico, we're launching here with an account, a credit card, a debit card, and remittances, and so much more
23:53And we built a completely new app, and we have a new brand
23:59We are able to do so
24:05Much more today because of everything that we've built before and all the platforms that are now hosting, not just in the US, but in Brazil, Mexico, and Colombia, allowing us to be much, much more efficient across all markets
24:11They're doing this faster than what they've done before in terms of their entry into the United States
24:16It's faster than how they've expanded into Mexico
24:18Okay? So, whenever you're talking about this population that has not only done extremely well with new financial services, like..
24:25this is the one thing that I think people disconnect from—the way that Nubank operates their business, from the way that Chime or Robinhood or SoFi or any of these others functions—is that the activity rates are unbelievably high, and the satisfaction of..
24:39The customers who use Nubank are higher than any other platform on earth, especially in financial services
24:46For example, and Davidid likes to highlight this, the number one Net Promoter Score (NPS) product for consumers in history right now—on earth—is not the iPhone, not Tesla, not the Model Y or anything like that
24:59It's the Mexico Purple Credit Card from Nubank, which has a 94-something NPS
25:04It is the most recommended product of any other brand on earth
25:12Okay, that customer focus that they've previously implemented is the reason why Nubank is likely to succeed in the United States, because they are competing against traditional financial brands like Bank of America
25:26City Group, Wells Fargo, who have traditionally treated their customers poorly
25:34Okay
25:43On top of that, you know, the unlike new fintechs who are entering into this market that can't afford to actually grow these businesses, Nubank can actually fund their United States branch much better than any of the other fintechs that they're operating against because they're doing $4 billion a quarter in revenue
25:51And by the way, this is in US dollars
25:54They're doing a billion dollars in net income
25:57That is actually quite a jump start to be able to fund operations in the United States
26:02Now later on, I want to talk about the opportunity that's in, uh, the United States, but it's way bigger than people can actually assume
26:09But like I ended
26:11Showing off here, NPS scores across Nubank for Brazil versus their competitors, and especially fintech and incumbent banks broken out separately
26:22You can see how they operate in each of those countries whenever it's indexed versus their peers
26:28I think that the United States is going to look quite similar
26:30But let's take a look at the actual opportunity here, from the United States to the rest of Latin America, when we've already looked at the population
26:41 The annual GDP of Brazil, Mexico, and Colombia altogether is roughly about $4.6 trillion, and that's a little bit rounded up, versus the United States at $30.7 trillion of annual GDP
26:53You only need a percentage; you don't need 60% of the adult population
26:58Population potentially doubles the business of Nubank
27:01GDP per capita is around $90,000
27:03Now, GDP per capita is not earned income, okay? That's gross domestic product per person
27:10But that's very, very different from earned income
27:14We'll talk about that here in a second
27:17But even when comparing all of these, about $11,000 versus $90,000, it's an unbelievable difference
27:23Yet, even operating in those areas—Brazil, Mexico, and Colombia—where income is much lower, they have still been able to bring in an average annual revenue per user, or per active customer, of $1,710
27:38And as those customers stay on the platform, that gets as high as $3,070
27:45But yet, the cost to serve those… Customers, okay, the actual affordability is about a dollar a month, but yet you're making $17
27:50>> Oh, sorry
27:56I don't want to go to that video just yet, but you're making $17,100 per customer
28:01Let's quickly take a look at David Velez here, and you make the easy calculations for income per capita or average spend
28:11You end up seeing that in the US, you could have an ARPU (average revenue per user) that is about 10 to 20 times higher than Brazil, but then we think we can serve the customer at effectively the same cost
28:20So if there's a construct, if we already have a cost advantage with incumbents in Latin America, this is an incredible advantage in the US
28:27And again, ultimately, this translates into a better value proposition for customers
28:31Profitably, in a way that for the incumbent bank, which has all this cost structure, it becomes really, really hard to compete with it
28:37It's going to be very difficult for them to compete
28:40And that's also why we say that one customer here in the US is equivalent to maybe ten or more customers in Brazil, because when you adjust for FX, for income per capita, and for the fact that people in the US use credit a lot more than they do actually in Brazil, they are able to underwrite a lot more customers here than we are in Brazil
29:00That combination just shows that we don't need that many customers to actually double the size of the company here
29:06So, it's a very interesting business model for us
29:11>> So, like you said, Potentially 10 to 20 times the value per customer
29:17And yet, the population of the three countries that they're already in almost ties the population of the United States
29:23The difference in annual GDP per country—look at it actually visualized here
29:26Okay
29:29It's just an unbelievable difference
29:32Yes, I spelled Colombia wrong
29:35Um, and then on top of that, country GDP per capita is also visualized; the United States is four times larger than the other three countries combined here
29:46Now, like I said, we need to look at the average salary because the average salary is what's going to bring in deposits, what's going to determine purchase volume, and what's going to determine the amount of loans that are taken out
29:58And like they said, the The United States population uses significantly more credit than these other three countries
30:08On a monthly basis, Brazil spends roughly $585 per person, Mexico about $539, and Colombia even less, around $472, almost $473 per person
30:17The United States, by comparison, spends $5,985 per month per person
30:27The average salaries in the U.S
30:31are 10.2 times higher than in Brazil, 11 times higher than in Mexico, and 12.6 times higher than in Colombia
30:37Okay, the opportunity here is unbelievably large
30:40And yet, these countries already have a nationally chartered, fully licensed bank, the same as JP Morgan, SoFi, and other highly regulated financial institutions
30:51They are entering this market with billions of dollars of capital and possess real technology
30:56The advantage that I want them to talk about
30:59So what's the true opportunity here for new? >> People are paying extremely high fees here
31:05We know that people are paying north of $75 billion in fees every year in the US
31:12Consumers are paying, and that's on the cost that they're actually seeing because, you know, they in theory could see the fees that are being charged
31:20But when you take into account the deposit side, we're talking about trillions of dollars sitting idle in accounts
31:25Well, they're actually getting paid, but the banks are taking all the payout from those deposits and sitting on their P&L
31:34So we know that if customers were to get paid yield on their deposits in the US, that..
31:39We're going to get north of $300 billion in yield, and today they're getting nothing
31:44I think the average that a deposit in the US earns, according to the FDIC, is 0.38%, and that's in an interest rate environment that's close to 4% a year
31:56So how can that be true in the US? You know, that's a lot of inefficiency and a lot of money that is being taken from consumers in the form of fees or the absence of yield to cover all those branches that no one cares for
32:11It's the call centers, it's the branches
32:13And anytime I talk about a new fintech, everyone thinks that they're competing against all these other fintechs
32:22While in reality, new fintechs are directly competing with Chime and Cash App of the world, which are..
32:27You know, trying to go after the average Americans, Nubank sees their opportunity in going after the people who are using Bank of America, Wells Fargo, these companies that are not being served well, but they have such an advantage
32:39>> What's interesting is people are not aware of the cost that they're paying to receive a certain level of service in this industry
32:47That should have already changed because the cost structure of the industry is changing
32:50>> Yeah
32:54>> And it is one of those profit pools that, if you look 10 to 20 years ahead, will trend towards zero
32:57It should not exist
33:01There is an arbitrage opportunity in how banks are using their balance sheets
33:05>> They're running on a dying business as..
33:08Davidid says, there are other ways to make money in financial services
33:13They're already ahead of this
33:15They're doing it the new age way, and the other banks are essentially running this business into the ground because they're taking money or taking money away from their customers and not providing the level of service they could
33:27Instead, they're taking all those deposits for themselves, paying their customers nothing, and essentially just profiting from this
33:34This is exactly why I am avoiding all of those companies, because I think their valuations will go down over time as the profits come in less and less, as more customers choose to use services that are actually treating them better
33:48Them correctly like what Nubank is doing
33:50There's a reason it's not a coincidence that 60% of the adult population banks with Nubank
33:54They do that because they're getting a truly proper service where the money that should be earned by them is being earned by them, and not being earned by some, you know, duopoly or some large banking conglomerate within a country which, by the way, even here in Canada is essentially run by five large banks
34:11I'm excited for Nubank to come to Canada and also offer me a service that is, you know, right for me
34:18So, we feel very good about the product that we're building and how it suits, uh, the needs and pain points of a wider audience of what we're calling a mass affluent customer
34:29We're not going to try to compete for the very, very, very high-income customers, a very valuable segment where there's a lot of competition even from banks, and where banks try harder to actually serve them better
34:41We know that's a harder segment to reach
34:43But when we look at the mass market in the US, which is massive, even the top quartile of that segment, which is the more affluent part of the mass market, they're fairly underserved because they're doing well
34:58They have money saved, they have a pretty good income level, but they don't have access to the premium products
35:05>> Yeah, this is another very interesting thing, right? Like everyone's worried about SoFi versus N26 or something like that
35:11This is because, obviously, I'm a big SoFi investor as well, but SoFi will be fine
35:15They are targeting an affluent user base
35:18This is not what Nubank is talking about
35:20They're sort of talking about the people who are making upwards of $100,000 per year
35:26They're on the upper affluent side, but we're not talking about the extremely wealthy customers, especially in the ultra-high-net-worth segment, like those being serviced by JP Morgan and these large banks
35:38They will fight for those customers
35:41What JP Morgan won't fight for are the people who are making $50,000 a year
35:44In fact, they've only just recently even raised those customers' maintenance fees and are actually showing those customers, hey, it actually..
35:53It costs us more to serve you than it does to actually benefit from your, uh, you using our services
36:01The new bank doesn't have the costs of the branches, the call centers, and all of these things that are costing them a large amount to run and actually serve those customers
36:10The new bank is set up the proper way for those types of customers, and that's why they're going to win
36:16So, look at what we can do with an audience and an amount of customers that is not only less in population than the United States but also making about one-tenth or one-twelfth of what those users make
36:31Total deposits are roughly $45 billion
36:34Overall purchase volume, which is growing at roughly 30% year-over-year, is $43 billion
36:40These are similar
36:42Levels, mind you
36:44The purchase volume is way higher than SoFi's
36:45SoFi is around 28 billion or 25 billion
36:47The deposits are almost identical
36:50Yet, SoFi has achieved that with about 15 million customers
36:53Now, imagine Nubank entering this space and potentially doubling those deposits, trying to find the next 15 million users that come through their United States division
37:03On top of that, the overall amount of customers or the amount of deposits they have is 39.4 billion overall, including total consumer loans, which is also quite good for Nubank
37:16So, this is another thing I wanted to highlight
37:18We'll wrap it here
37:20Why is Nubank going to win? Why do they deserve to win? What actually differentiates them from other banks? Fintech companies who also have very clean structures in terms of their cost to serve
37:31If you look at the cost to serve, you know, we, uh, we invest about a dollar to serve our customers extremely well across the geographies that we serve
37:39And even here in the US, we don't expect that cost to be much bigger than that
37:45And then you look at incumbent banks, and they're spending more than 20 times that, you know, to service customers because of all the branches, call centers, and all their outdated infrastructure
37:57So, a combination of a different revenue model that is going to disrupt a lot of their revenue, and a cost structure that is about 20 times lower than theirs, is a very powerful combination for disruption
38:11You know, so that's something for investors to watch out for, for sure
38:15Keeping the cost, uh, to serve the same, 20 times the potential revenue per customer
38:20This is the catalyst that we're walking into, by the way
38:24The stock is down since they've announced this
38:25Second, it's about the velocity of testing
38:27Best-in-class banks in the US are changing, are still today changing credit models every two to three years
38:34We were changing credit models every six months when we began in 2013
38:38By now, we're changing credit models every week or every two weeks, right? Everything that, uh, or that AI and much more sophisticated underwriting capability is giving us
38:46 Yeah, I mean, um, this is so interesting as well
38:50It talks about their..
38:53A different approach to not only lending, which they've put up against their other peers in terms of performance across all the different customer segments they have, is that they are beating their competitors across the board
39:03This is actually allowing them to then turn that profit back into, you know, potential more sales and marketing, which, by the way, they have world-class customer acquisition
39:10While SoFi holds a $350 customer acquisition cost, the new bank's customer acquisition cost is closer to $9 per person
39:19Okay, the ability to actually do referrals, and people have been so happy to be serviced by a bank that actually cares about them, that they're just telling their friends about it because they Want that service as well? Okay
39:32But this type of approach, this modern, forward-looking approach of not only underwriting better but also creating their own AI—so they have their own models, which are called Neuron Labs—they have their own GPU clusters, they've got a GPU fleet, and they're trying to analyze unstructured data on 140 million customers
39:48This gives them such an advantage over their competitors because they already have a massive swath of data that allows them to be extremely agile in their underwriting, stay ahead of the curve, and then also turn that profit back into new potential opportunities
40:03I'll give you guys a quick example of one of those opportunities, which was actually—they said back whenever they were..
40:13Starting the company, the two main industries that were most hated by the Brazilian population were number one, banking
40:19The top five most hated companies in Brazil, all five of them were banks, and then the next five were telecom companies
40:22Okay
40:26Nubank has also entered the telecom sector
40:29They call it NuCell, where they offer you a SIM card that provides a reduced rate and actually a higher deposit fee
40:35So, instead of earning, let's say, 4% on your checking account, it would be boosted up to 5%, but you're also paying a monthly fee for your phone bill, which they are also taking advantage of as well
40:45They go after areas outside of financial services
40:47Okay
40:49The opportunity is beyond just deposits and spending
40:52It's just because the United States is such a huge opportunity here, the total addressable market does not require them to get into e-commerce just yet, or some of these other things which they've also, you know, directed their focus towards, like Nubank's Purple Pages, which is another offering between their, you know, close-end, small to mid-size businesses and their customers to sell between them without any fees
41:14Anyway, let's continue
41:16What's the disconnect between the stock and the overall, uh, like the opportunity, the catalyst? This is what's so surprising to me
41:28It's not that a company is winning, because there are companies like Palantir that continue to do extremely well, grow at high rates, but the..
41:34The real opportunity, okay, is within the valuation
41:36How disconnected is the valuation versus the actual growth? And what we see here is that the price-to-sales ratio on Nubank is 4.9 times, while the forward price-to-sales, which means how much they’re expected to grow by next year, is roughly half of that
41:55This indicates they are expected to grow their revenue extremely fast by next year, almost doubling to 2.6 times on a forward price-to-sales ratio
42:03Okay, that means Wall Street's expecting a high amount of growth
42:08But even more importantly than this is their price-to-earnings ratio
42:10The PE ratio on this is 19 times trailing earnings, which is much cheaper than SoFi, much cheaper than many of the traditional big banks
42:18Yet, the forward PE..
42:20They're expecting so much growth, and the margins continue to expand
42:25Forward PE is 14 times, which is some of the cheapest valuations of this company in recent history
42:30Okay, so I'm only looking at the last year, but you guys can scroll out as it gets wider and wider
42:36This company has not been this cheap in its entire history
42:38Now, this is not a new company
42:40It might be for you, and this might be the first time you've ever seen this company at a PEG ratio of 0.5 times, but I've been buying this company since January of 2023, back when the stock was $3.81
42:51Anyone can go and verify that
42:53The videos are still on YouTube right now
42:56Okay? Just type in Future Investing 2023
42:58I think it was called something along the..
43:03Lines of Warren Buffett's next favorite stock because he was buying in at the IPO
43:07Berkshire Hathaway was
43:12Okay
43:17The interesting part about this company is that it's cheaper today than it was back at $3.80, not in terms of the actual price, but the amount of revenue and earnings that have come in since then, and the number of customers
43:22The company has grown faster than the stock has actually appreciated over time
43:26Today looks like one of the better opportunities, and that's why I'm buying
43:30I'm getting extremely excited about this American opportunity
43:32And also, we didn't even talk about Nubank, where they're expanding their services into 35 different countries or 35 separate markets
43:40We didn't even..
43:42Remotely talk about that
43:44The opportunities here are huge
43:48Okay
43:52They'll compete directly against Revolut, SoFi, Chime, but especially the large banks, for which, you know, this is one of the most profitable industries in the entire world—financial services
43:56I wouldn't necessarily just brush that off and call it a bank
44:01I would look at it as a business that's growing at 50-plus percent, margins are expanding, ROE of 33 percent, one of the most successful companies, and definitely the greatest success story out of Brazil ever in history
44:11So, uh, mind-blowing business, and that's sort of my wrap there
44:13I'm a buyer
44:15Um, okay
44:17We have roughly 15 minutes until the FOMC
44:20We'll end up getting the update about, um, where..
44:26The actual markets are going to be moving, and then we'll also cover that
44:37Afterwards, I also put together a presentation on Nvidia as well because there was a lot of commentary around the All-In Summit that I don't think everyone is covering right now
44:49[clears throat] Okay, enough with this paid ad
44:54Yeah, uh, Nubank won't even take my calls
44:56I've reached out to them for interviews multiple times
45:02I'm not paid by Nubank at all
45:03I've been a long-time shareholder
45:05It's a top-five company for me
45:12But yeah
45:19Um, did you guys know that Coroweave is actually now bringing up hundreds of Vera Rubin servers already? It's in a single scaled-out cluster for Artificial General Intelligence
45:26They'll be selling this to..
45:27Customers
45:28They ended up updating this
45:29They are by far the fastest company to set up these Vera Rubin telescopes
45:33Not only that, though, Nebius also highlighted a very similar thing
45:37They're setting up Vera Rubin telescopes, and Microsoft is also talking about validating Vera Rubin as well
45:41Now, they all eventually will have these chips, but as you guys know, Cerebras is selling a lot of chips, okay? And one of the things for them is speed—the amount of money you can pay for premium access to very high-end chips is wild
45:58So, CoreWeave is likely to benefit from being first to market with clusters that are available for sale of these brand new chips
46:08If you can't get them anywhere else, then obviously CoreWeave sets the standard
46:11The price
46:13I would say get ready for what you're about to see for Q3 in terms of the pricing of some of the deals that they end up signing for Vera Rubin, specifically
46:18Okay
46:23Um, so that's also quite nice
46:29By the way, we talked about earlier, OpenAI ended up being valued at $1.2 trillion
46:33That's going to end up getting them a lot of new money
46:38And with that new money, usually it's because they end up getting new customers
46:41And we've already proven that out
46:43They've been looking for new compute resources
46:44One of their largest companies that they're working with, which is Oracle, is obviously very likely to benefit from that, but they also have $22.4 billion of signed long-term contracts with CoreWeave as well
46:51I'm curious
46:58If they come around and become one of the large first purchasers of Vera Rubin with CoreWeave
47:05But, um, regardless, quite interesting from CoreWeave here
47:07Let's take a look at the stock, up roughly 3.5%
47:14The company is still in around the $80 plus dollar range, $83.79
47:21All right
47:28Nebius, however, did just post fifth-place results in the latest MLPerf AI inference benchmarks, including leading positions with their GB300 NVLink-72 racks
47:36Now, there were two companies that submitted results for Vera Rubin—it was Nebius and CoreWeave
47:44But Nebius, as I mentioned, is putting up great results
47:51The neo-clouds are moving faster than anyone I think would have imagined
47:56So, they're a peer play on, you know, sort of this..
48:02AI development and spending continue
48:08If the fears of AI extinction, like those expressed by Jacob Coxe, end up being unfounded, these companies are going to rebound quite strongly
48:15The key is how many customers they have and how much new revenue they are able to sign
48:18New GPUs are actually being set up between periods of AI concern and the subsequent rerating back to confidence in AI, which we’ve seen happen repeatedly as CoreWeave’s stock price fluctuates rapidly
48:26It just constantly happens
48:35They end up falling to $68, then rising to $138, dropping again to $60, then climbing back to $120, and settling around $80
48:40It’s pretty ridiculous
48:45It might be a trader’s favorite name right now
48:50Would you sell DLO for NVIDIA? Bank? Uh no
48:59I like Nubank way more than DLP, but DLP is actually their prime provider for their new global payments
49:06So all the payments to the 35 different countries that they're processing and everything, Nubank is their—or sorry, DLP is their prime provider for those payments
49:17They are a big name and they constantly are winning
49:22It's just a matter of where the margins are headed, you know, in the future
49:28[Snorts] You guys might not like Nubank
49:36I promise you, the couple of comments saying you don't like the stock are not going to change
49:44I promise you, for the rest of history, I'll talk about whatever I want to talk about
49:49I really do like that company
49:55Okay, that being said, we are 10 minutes away from… Finding out if we are going to have rate hikes or not
50:01The S&P 500 is up 2.7%
50:04NASDAQ is up 5.7%, and this has been down a little bit since, uh, we started looking at this at 1:00
50:13So, I'm curious
50:16JP Morgan believes that, um, the markets are going to sell off if we don't get rate hikes
50:24They said there could be a 1.5% selloff if we end up pausing rates
50:26If we just keep rates still again, that's going to cause a large stock market reaction
50:32It seems surprising to me
50:35I wouldn't have guessed that, but that's what they believe
50:38On the other side of things, I think one of the more hopeful outcomes that people are assuming is that we end up getting some form of a 25 basis point hike and then a lot of dovish commentary out of Jerome Powell that essentially says this is— Likely, you know, the most that we need to do
50:58That would also be, I think, well received from the markets
50:59See, whenever we look at the FedWatch, what's the chance that we actually do see a rate hike? And I'm also going to check the call sheet as well
51:05Let me pull this up on my phone
51:11FedWatch is not even loading
51:17The chance that the Fed maintains rates right now is a 15% chance
51:25It's actually gone up since yesterday, not down
51:28And the FedWatch is not loading for me
51:30Last time I checked, there's about a 7% chance of keeping rates steady
51:32Not very likely
51:34Okay
51:37Yeah, you're right
51:40Let's check oil really quick
51:43$102.40, $102.30 right now, falling today
51:46I don't think the individual day that, uh, we end up seeing, maybe if it can
51:58They continue to fall over the course of now and 230, maybe that is a little bit more hopeful, but hopefully they have their own data that they're basing it off and not just today's oil prices
52:06Okay, guys, seven minutes
52:14Um, I paid 15 cents for no hike
52:19There you go
52:25A lot of people are buying the 15 cents for no hike
52:30I mean, I kind of believe it's not going to hike as well
52:37It's just Kevin Worsh so new that I don't know how to judge him
52:43Like, I mean, if it was Jerome Powell, I'd say we're hiking, we're hiking 100%
52:46But yeah, that’s only one of my concerns here
52:53If no hike, 600 big ones
52:56There you go
53:00Okay, let's make sure that we have the data ready to go
53:04I'll bring this up and post it in chat if you guys get it before me
53:13Well, also, Nick T will be reporting on this as well
53:24So, I want to make sure that we have..
53:30Okay, Nick Tarose is ready
53:36You'll probably be speaking and asking some questions during the Fed rate decision in five minutes
53:41Okay, CNBC has a countdown
53:47It’s that big
53:52Hey, this is a very big one
53:55I, I, I don’t know why this feels much bigger than the last, like, three different meetings, which also seemed important, but not as big as this one
54:04This one feels like an inflection point until we don't hike again, and then next month feels like an inflection point—October, but I’ll see, just in case
54:17I don’t see a countdown on CNBC; I see that they’re on a commercial break
54:21Okay
54:26All right
54:30We are four minutes away
54:34Micron just got a TD Cowan price upgrade, $1,600 price target
54:48We're in the eighth inning on gross margin expansion, roughly 80% through the cycle, peaking at 89% in the calendar quarter of Q2 2027
54:58But mid-cycle on demand, with risk-reward still favorable heading into the print, Micron is expecting to guide towards $37 of EPS for their November quarter versus $35 as the estimate
55:14[laughter] A modest single-digit beat after averaging about 35% beats over the prior three quarters
55:19What if TD's wrong? What if we come in with 10-20% on this? If Worsh comes out, um — if Worsh comes out with a blue tie, we're cooked
55:36Didn't he come in with a blue tie last time? I think he had a blue tie last time
55:41I don't think he plays the politics
55:44Games
55:46Um, honestly, I really don't think he cares
55:48He seems like somebody who doesn't care
55:55Okay, let's jump over to CNBC really quick, bringing up the numbers
56:00If they can't bring it up fast enough with Kelly, I am Brian >>, and we are just about 3 minutes away from the Fed's interest rate decision, with markets overwhelmingly pricing in a hike
56:14Fed Funds futures put the odds at 90%
56:16But hey, there's a 10% chance
56:18For investors, the headline move may be only the beginning
56:21The real catalyst could be the chair's comments on inflation, growth, and how much further policy may need to tighten
56:26That's coming around 2:30 p.m
56:28Eastern
56:31>> All right, so let's stop talking and get right to our all-star panel to kick off this hour
56:33We are joined by Harris Financial Group Managing Partner Jamie Cox, Raymond James Chief Investment Officer Larry Adams, JP Morgan Chief Global Strategist David Kelly, and RBC Chief Economist Francis Donald
56:42Francis, I am going to start with you because you probably heard me say moments ago, and I think you have said this in the past, rate hike or not, I just don't know what the Fed can do about inflation related to oil and the Strait of Formosa
56:57>> That's what I want to hear from Fed Chair Lael Brainard today
57:00How is he thinking about these rate hikes actually transmitting to the real economy? Does he think they're really going to bring down inflation? If so, which kind? And is he aware of the side effects that come around rate hikes? Hikes, including how they're going to impact consumers at the lower end in particular
57:12David Kelly, what are your expectations? >> Well, I do think they're going to tighten
57:18I think, uh, I think Chairman Powell has painted himself into a corner here, exactly as you've been talking about
57:23If there's now a 90% probability they're going to raise rates, if they don't raise rates, people are going to assume that it's politically motivated
57:30And so I don't like how they get to this decision
57:33I don't think they should be raising rates, but I think at this point, they've got no choice
57:36>> But can Kevin end up sticking it out? I agree
57:41Like if this is oil-based, then what is a 25 basis point cut or hike going to even do? >> Sorry
57:44Let's continue
57:48My apologies, >> Jamie
57:52What's the real view from Richmond? >> For Richmond, we wish he wouldn't raise rates
57:56I mean, those of us who are mainstream Americans want more things to cost more, particularly things that involve interest rates
58:01I mean, it's just going to make housing more complicated
58:04There are a lot of knock-on effects, I think, that are going to really be significant
58:07I think it's going to be a mistake for them to hike
58:13I agree with you
58:19But tell me more about why, because what about the idea that it's the only way to bring inflation more meaningfully back down? >> Well, the question is what component of inflation is the most persistent? It's the wage component, right? I mean, we all know that there's a Supply shock
58:24We all know that there are problems with oil
58:26The problem is that the war in Iran has not been punctuated
58:29It started, then it stopped, and now it's restarted again
58:31So, the conditions haven't changed, but now we're going to change the interest rate environment
58:35That's a problem
58:38It's not something that they’re paying attention to, what the set of conditions was just three months ago
58:42>> Cut
58:43>> Yeah, I agree
58:45It's being driven by supply, ladies and gentlemen
58:47>> No hike
58:48The S&P 500 stays flat
58:50There you go
58:52The predictions have proved right
58:54A lot of you guys are saying, I don't see it yet
59:02Did you guys bamboozle me? It's built into the stocks market
59:06They haven't spiked the S&P 500
59:09You were
59:11Saying five, this is the lowest year-over-year wage growth we've seen in five years
59:17There's not a scintilla of evidence that whatever demand there is in the economy is actually generating more inflation
59:23We think growth will slow next year
59:24We think inflation will come down next year, and the Fed really ought to just be patient here
59:27But it's kind of hard to be patient
59:29I mean, it's really a problem, and that's why we need forward guidance
59:32You did bamboozle me
59:36What the heck was that? How did you all do? Every single person said no hike at the same time
59:39Who told you to do that? The Federal Reserve officially hikes interest rates by 25 basis points, marking the first rate hike since July
59:51In 2023, how did you guys do that? I just believe that you guys had some source
59:58Did Cactus Jack or someone send out the wrong information? I was like, it's 159
01:00:03How do you guys know this? I was like, that didn't make any sense to me
01:00:07Okay, it was
01:00:12Sorry, I said all the people in their prediction markets won
01:00:15You guys lost
01:00:19[laughter] The Fed raised rates 25 basis points to a 3.75% to 4% target rate
01:00:22S&P ended up turning south
01:00:26I don’t know which report came in saying there was no hike
01:00:29It literally affected the market
01:00:31The market shot up alongside that, and now it's ended up cooling off
01:00:34It's like someone from an official source said that there was no rate hike
01:00:41The Fed unanimously raised benchmark rates by 25 basis points
01:00:48Unanimously
01:00:55Where's Steven Moran when you need him? The FOMC medium forecast shows one additional 25 basis point hike in 2026
01:01:02One additional 25 basis point hike in 2026
01:01:08Okay
01:01:13Seriously, who told you guys? It was Trump
01:01:18No
01:01:22Who all told you to spam no hike? Everyone said it all at the exact same time
01:01:27Um, Trump is going to be pissed, but it was also from the person that he just put in
01:01:42So, like, how fast is he going to turn on them? Okay, let's see here
01:01:46Another 25 basis point hike is expected to be incoming between now and the rest of 2026
01:02:09Markets are actually coming back decently well
01:02:18Um, it's that old saying, right? We can have good news
01:02:24We're good at taking good news
01:02:27We're good at taking bad news
01:02:28We hate uncertainty
01:02:30That
01:02:31Seemingly, that's what we're falling into right now
01:02:39Now I'm trying to get the rest of the report, and I'm not looking at chat anymore
01:02:43Um, most officials ended up penciling in one more hike
01:02:52The committee decided to raise the target range for the Federal Funds Rate by a quarter point in support of the Federal Reserve's dual mandate
01:03:05The committee is continuing its policy of maintaining ample reserves in the banking system
01:03:09Economic activity is expanding at a solid pace, while uncertainty remains elevated
01:03:13Um, owing in part to geopolitical developments, domestic spending has been resilient, productivity growth is strong, and capital investment is robust
01:03:27Job gains have kept pace with the workforce
01:03:30Unemployment rate has changed little
01:03:33Inflation remains elevated
01:03:36Today's policy actions will support a timelier return to the committee's 2% goal
01:03:40The committee will deliver price stability
01:03:43As for the dot plot, that 25 basis point assumption for 2026, and then potentially even slightly higher in 2027, maybe one more hike in 2027 is what a lot of them are calling for
01:04:04Well, one hike in 2026
01:04:07If you don't get it in 2026, we're going to get it in 2027
01:04:10And then the majority of the FOMC participants are actually calling for another hike in 2027
01:04:18So one more this year, one more next year
01:04:21That's the current assumption
01:04:24And then after that, it drops way down
01:04:28Okay, let's see what else
01:04:32It was unanimous
01:04:36That was one of the things that I, I think, is also quite, um, quite interesting
01:04:42So, let's go through a little bit of the events of what the heck happened, as the S&P actually turns more green than before the event even started
01:04:53The Federal Reserve hiked interest rates by 25 basis points for the first time since July of 2023
01:05:00The decision was unanimous, 12 to 0, to hike the rates
01:05:06The Fed said that the decision was to support a timelier return to 2% inflation
01:05:09While the median forecast from Fed officials shows one more 25 basis point rate hike in 2026, the Fed states that job gains are strong and that the unemployment rate has changed little, and that the committee will deliver price stability, as per the Fed's statements
01:05:29It looks like it's going to
01:05:32Be higher for longer
01:05:35Fun
01:05:38Okay
01:05:41Now, at 2:30, we are going to actually see commentary from Kevin Worsh
01:05:45Like I said, one of the potential real bull cases here is that we end up seeing a hike, but then very dovish commentary
01:05:59The 25 basis points for the rest of the year, of course, is not starting off very, very dovish
01:06:05That's immediately hawkish, but I'm interested to hear what Kevin Worsh says
01:06:11I feel like a lot of the meetings previously, he hasn't said much
01:06:16You know, he's been talking about the way that he thinks about monetary policy, but not necessarily what they want to do in the future or how that's changing with the new data that they end up getting
01:06:30So, we'll see
01:06:33Meta's going up
01:06:35Nvidia's up
01:06:371.8%
01:06:40The hike did not affect their price
01:06:45Tesla is up
01:06:49Is this a high on the day? Not a high on the day, but you wouldn't think that we had a hike
01:06:52Meta is climbing way up
01:06:54Whoa, whoa, whoa
01:06:56What's happening to Meta right now? That looks more than just a rate hike decision
01:07:02Did a lawsuit close in their favor? What the heck is happening? Citigroup reiterated their buy rating
01:07:08That's fine
01:07:13Apple is up 85%, and Google is up 34%
01:07:17Even Amazon and Microsoft, the names that are more red today, are not seeing a poor reaction
01:07:27Let's check some of the more interest rate-sensitive names
01:07:30SoFi, like, dude, at the time that we saw the hike, it fell down to $16.74, and now it's higher than before the decision was even made
01:07:42They hiked, someone said
01:07:44Lumentum, Lumentum up 11.4%
01:07:52What is happening? What is this? Um, okay
01:07:59Credo up nine
01:08:03A lot of these AI names are seeing a pump after the hike
01:08:10Okay
01:08:17What about like Oracle? What? Yeah, they were priced in
01:08:24I, I, I understand that they were priced in
01:08:28I get that
01:08:31Then why not keep that? Then why not stay flat? See, this is the thing about markets
01:08:35They hate uncertainty
01:08:36Now that it actually came in, we got the bad news
01:08:39It's over
01:08:42You know, at least they didn't say two more rate hikes this year and three more rate hikes next year
01:08:44The fact that we're talking about one more hike this year and then one more hike next year, it's like, okay, we can handle that
01:08:49That's better than our worst expectations
01:08:53And so, we can ground ourselves to it
01:08:57Being a moderate rate hike cycle rather than something like what we saw after COVID, where, you know, we ended up going up 400 basis points or something
01:09:08Everything is priced in
01:09:10Yeah, I know, everything in the world is already priced in
01:09:12Very interesting
01:09:15Very interesting indeed
01:09:18But you know what? We can always look to the crypto names
01:09:29Yeah, the crypto names still, uh, not happy
01:09:30So if you want to get sad, look to Nubank
01:09:35$13.77
01:09:39That's where the opportunity is
01:09:44Everyone wants me to talk about the names that have already gone up 10%, and then they say, or already gone up 10x, and then they go, "Well, why didn't you tell us earlier?" I'm telling you earlier
01:09:56You guys all hate it
01:09:59Um, but I don't lament, however, this one is in my
01:10:07Portfolio and in the stock draft, both actually up 11%
01:10:12So we still lead in the draft right now
01:10:19I think this is adjusted for after the Fed hike, but it wouldn't change much
01:10:25I mean, all it would do is actually put me even higher up on the list because Lentum is up
01:10:28But we're up 7.6%, which is a drawdown from being up 14.3%
01:10:34I think that was the high
01:10:36Steve is also up 4%, and then Matt was actually red earlier today, so he is just above break-even
01:10:42And then Chris, Emit, and Jason are having much worse times
01:10:50Chris down 11%, Emit down 14.6%, Jason down 22%
01:10:54I might end up doing a trade with Jason, being the first trade of the entire draft, where I trade him his Nebula for Robinhood
01:11:04So, we'll see how this plays out
01:11:12Current portfolio that's leading me to first place
01:11:15And I got really hurt
01:11:16I mean, if Clarity Act had come in positively, I would have been, you know, on the moon with Coinbase, Robinhood, and many of those companies ending up doing well
01:11:28The fact that I got slapped on those companies selling off goes to show you that the rest of our portfolio is rock solid
01:11:34Now, in roughly about 17 or 18 minutes from now, we will see Kevin O'Leary step onto the stage
01:11:44We'll hear some of his commentary
01:11:47October—oh, we need to see how this is going to adjust
01:11:57FedWatch is not updated just yet; we'll get that update soon
01:12:00Miami Hurricanes are in a deal with Nike exceeding $200 million
01:12:09Okay
01:12:18Dan Madron says, "Nvidia, Micron, Nebula, CoreWeave, Lumera, Lumentum, Meta, Reddit, SoFi, Melly, Broadcom, Oracle, Palantir
01:12:26Which ones am I missing?" Um, I mean, you got a lot of them
01:12:33[laughter] You definitely have a lot of them
01:12:38I'd have to go through the list
01:12:40Uh, Shopify is my second biggest position, so you're missing that one for sure, Dan
01:12:45Okay
01:12:50[coughs and clears throat] Palantir sucks
01:12:55Why are you saying Palantir sucks? What's happening to Palantir? It's up 0.4%
01:13:01Whoa, whoa, whoa
01:13:06Why are you mad? Why do you have to be mad? It's a good day
01:13:12You know, it could have been better
01:13:16It could have been better
01:13:20JP Morgan said that the stock market was going to fall 1.5% if we didn't hike
01:13:25So, um, let's see here
01:13:30Coherent Luminar Credo is up
01:13:35What's going on with the optics names? Is this probably another TAM upgrade or something from one of the big banks? They've done a lot of those
01:13:44Okay
01:13:53Um, not only did they hike interest rates, but it was a 120-0 unanimous decision
01:14:02This marks the first unanimous Fed decision since May of 2025, amid calls from President Trump to cut rates, and the Fed concluded their policy statement by saying the committee will deliver price stability, making it clear that inflation is their top priority
01:14:17How will President Trump respond? Twelve days ago, President Trump said that he would stop trading with 50 plus US trade partners if the Fed does not cut rates
01:14:30Today, the Fed did not
01:14:32They only avoid cutting rates; they hike them
01:14:36Clearly, the divide between the White House and the Fed is widening, even with Jerome Powell out
01:14:42You know what? Here's the thing
01:14:47Let's not worry about the 25 basis point hike and what that does to your interest payments, as I know Trump has been highlighting
01:14:56It's a severe increase—every, uh, what is it, 25 basis points, I think it is—adds $600 billion to increased, uh, interest expenses for the United States
01:15:08I mean, the federal debt
01:15:11I get that
01:15:14Then maybe don't issue $1.3 or $1.4 trillion out of the blue—money that's not needed, no one asked for it—$5,000 per adult US citizen
01:15:26That would buy you two years of interest expenses right there, or two rate hikes, right there, on, um..
01:15:43Expenses
01:16:00I know he's not—I don't think he's going to do it either because I don't think the voters are going to vote like he's going to say, "Hey, you know what? We didn't do it because we didn't win." So I don't think he has to do it, but it still is surprising that you're worried about the federal deficit and then you issue $1.4 trillion of payments to no one who asks for it
01:16:17I mean, we're happy to have it, sure
01:16:20But yeah, I know everyone in this chat would take that and immediately put it into stocks, prediction markets
01:16:32I mean, that would be interesting
01:16:37If they do actually win the midterm, then does the conversation become, okay, which companies are most likely to benefit from $5,000 checks being..
01:16:47Issued to every single American adult? Like, I wonder, does Robinhood become a big beneficiary in that case? Retail investing would just boom
01:17:01Yes, I'm going to share the meeting
01:17:04The meeting is at 2:30
01:17:07Okay
01:17:10We'll also have the price of the stocks and everything on screen at the same time
01:17:13Okay
01:17:17Twelve out of the eighteen officials see one more hike this year
01:17:20Um, four see two more rate hikes
01:17:29I didn't see that on the dot plot
01:17:31Was that true? Who's calling for two more rate hikes this year? I didn't see that
01:17:36I saw that for next year
01:17:41Okay
01:17:47Um, it's every adult, not citizen
01:17:52I mean, that's even worse
01:17:56I'm sure they're not going to give $5,000 to, uh, well, I guess, permanent residents, stuff like this
01:18:07I, yeah
01:18:11Yeah, we should have
01:18:14Truth Social up
01:18:18Heh, he might be a bit..
01:18:19It might be after Fed Wars talked, unless you know what, maybe he saw this coming because I think that the commentary has changed a little bit around Fed hikes
01:18:30I don't think that they want hikes
01:18:36I don't think Trump's going to be pleased about that, but I don't think he was expecting a cut this month
01:18:42You know, I think that he was expecting a, potentially, a pause
01:18:47Maybe that went against what he's hoping for
01:18:52Um, okay
01:18:55Our nation is addicted to infinite spending
01:19:08I mean, people get happy with spending
01:19:09They don't like having their products and services taken away
01:19:13That's the problem
01:19:16I don't see any potential end to the spending
01:19:19I don't know if you guys do
01:19:21I literally don't know how that would happen
01:19:27What political party is going to get in by saying, "Hey, guys, by the way, we're spending way too much." Um, and you're going to have to cut back on some of your social services that are being offered
01:19:42We're going to pay you less
01:19:45We're going to offer you less care
01:19:47We are going to have less defense spending
01:19:48You know, go down the list and say, "We're going to have to cut all of these." Yeah
01:19:51Right
01:19:53I'm good with less war
01:19:56I think most people would agree with that
01:20:03Okay
01:20:10All right
01:20:17We have roughly 8 minutes until the Fed meeting
01:20:24Let's see where CNBC is on this right now, and then we can cut back to the markets
01:20:31Okay, they're on commercial break
01:20:35Getting a lot of buffering today
01:20:37I don't
01:20:39Know why
01:20:41Maybe I gotta close out of some things
01:20:44Um, okay
01:20:47I've got Trump's Truth Social up
01:20:50He hasn't posted yet
01:20:54Might be a bit, maybe after the meeting, but we'll be live on here till around 4:00 p.m
01:20:57ish
01:20:59So, um, we'll probably see something by then
01:21:02Okay
01:21:05And then we're back at, I think, 4:10
01:21:07Um, so I only have like a 10-minute break, and I'll be on with Aid, Jose, and Neil for our Wednesday show
01:21:12Okay
01:21:17Wow
01:21:22Treasury, why didn't we check this? Oh my gosh
01:21:27Treasury 2-year yield erases decline, rebounds
01:21:29Oh, wait
01:21:31Never mind
01:21:33I read that wrong
01:21:35Okay, let's check
01:21:36US 2-year
01:21:38Yeah
01:21:39Wow
01:21:41And then US 10-year, 4.95
01:21:42We broke above five very recently
01:21:50Oh my gosh
01:21:58Maybe coming back down, and then the 30-year sparks of decline here
01:22:05But Yeah
01:22:07Wow
01:22:09NASDAQ is up 7% right now
01:22:11Let's look a little bit closer
01:22:22Let me make sure that we have our live stream ready to go for whenever the great and powerful Kevin Walsh steps to the podium
01:22:30Where's the Ten-Year Treasury at? I think it was uh 4.95, 4.95
01:22:36Micron hit 241 and then immediately erased those gains, or sorry, 941
01:22:48Now it's 9.28
01:22:59Okay, let me see if I can get it
01:23:06Okay, I've got Kevin Walsh
01:23:12I'm going to try to get it with the stock price on it as well
01:23:18CNBC's live stream seemingly is down for me; maybe they're getting a lot of activity
01:23:22Okay, here we go
01:23:26Okay, let's jump over to this really quick
01:23:30We'll listen to the press conference afterward
01:23:33>> That a risk in some ways, or is that an opportunity if he doesn't commit to? Are there more rate hikes? >> So I think as long as he lays out the decision tree of what they’re actually looking at, that’s what he needs to do
01:23:48Whether it’s one or two, like we talked about, I don’t think that has a big impact on the economy because it’s the higher-end consumers driving this economy
01:23:55It’s the big companies driving it
01:23:57They’re not really as interest rate sensitive
01:23:59But as you brought up before, what is really going to be impacted? The rest of America, middle America, lower-income America
01:24:05And I think the Fed has always looked out for that
01:24:07They’ve been talking about trying to broaden the focus
01:24:10>> Yeah, that’s where I live
01:24:12I live in the real world
01:24:14>> I wonder why that is
01:24:15I might not be able to watch it
01:24:16>> It’s just… Lagging too much
01:24:22Um, okay
01:24:27I'll switch over to Yahoo then, and we'll get a good view that way
01:24:32But he should be coming on in the next five minutes
01:24:43We'll look out for Trump's post
01:24:47And I'll also make sure I keep up with some of the news stories between now and then
01:24:56Okay
01:25:05 The Pentagon's chief technology officer said Wednesday that the Trump administration should not nationalize AI companies or take partial government ownership stakes
01:25:13We don't want the government to get in the middle
01:25:20When asked about partial government ownership of AI companies, he opposed expanding pre-regulatory measures, favoring the enforcement of existing laws
01:25:26And I actually disagree
01:25:28I don't think it's a problem if there is a rule
01:25:33That said that the government, uh, has to maintain a minority stake, you know, you have no voting shares
01:25:38You have nothing like this
01:25:41Why is it a problem that the United States government, you know, and its people benefit from the hardworking companies that are within its country? Like, is that a problem? Like, imagine if the United States government, uh, that it's almost like a sovereign wealth fund
01:26:00No, you have like an S&P 500 of amazing, uh, tech companies and large American businesses to benefit from
01:26:06What's wrong with a sovereign wealth fund? >> Yes, it's a problem, but no one's telling me why
01:26:20Little socialist of you
01:26:22What? How is that? What are you guys? I said, "How is that socialist at all? Zero votes
01:26:29That's not socialist at all
01:26:34I'm saying there's a $40 trillion deficit, and there has been one area that has compounded wealth better than any other tool in history
01:26:45It's been the S&P 500
01:26:48Conflict of interest
01:26:52Okay, fair
01:26:55That's the only person who even said a single, uh, you know, a single thing
01:26:58Maybe you give favorable regulation to a company that you own, so you wouldn't want to do that
01:27:03Yeah
01:27:07The government would be incentivized to pick favorites
01:27:09Yeah
01:27:11Yeah, that makes sense
01:27:12Communist stream
01:27:13You guys are crazy
01:27:15I'm just saying, wouldn't it be nice how much money you would have made if you had invested in Microsoft in the early days? And you guys are saying, like, I'm asking you to sign up for a breadline or something
01:27:26How are..
01:27:37Are you making that connection? >> [laughter] >> This is going to be a clip before the FOMC
01:27:41>> Okay
01:27:44Um, >> okay
01:27:47Warning
01:27:50Thank you all
01:27:58[laughter] >> Okay
01:28:00That's what a communist would say
01:28:09[laughter] We've just been talking about stocks, this whole time, and financial services businesses and all
01:28:16Like, I'm a capitalist through and through
01:28:18Um, okay
01:28:23The US government is already a part owner in every business through corporate income taxes
01:28:31Fair
01:28:38Fair
01:28:46But then, how would a, um, yeah, I guess that's true
01:28:52I guess that's true
01:28:55And then, how would you begin to sell those assets, you know? Yeah
01:28:59No, you're right
01:29:02I, and I sit here with my changed mind
01:29:06Chris, man, we should have a dedicated stream soon, where you end
01:29:14Coming up, and uh, we can talk some stocks regularly
01:29:20You can give me your capitalist views, however bearish they are, and I'll give you my bullish communist views
01:29:30[laughter] Ladies and gentlemen, Kevin Warsh should be stepping out on stage here in the next minute or so, and uh, we'll get to hear what is happening for the future of interest rates from the Federal Reserve
01:29:50Um, are fire exit signs red in the US? Where are they for you? Green
01:30:03All right, Kevin's here, ladies and gentlemen
01:30:07Good luck
01:30:15Good day
01:30:23In the meeting just concluded, the FOMC decided to raise the target range for the federal funds rate by a quarter of a percentage point to 3 and three-quarters to 4%, in support of the Federal Reserve's dual mandate
01:30:31The committee is Continuing its policy of maintaining ample reserves in the banking system
01:30:36As noted in the policy statement released just a short while ago, economic activity is expanding at a solid pace
01:30:43While uncertainty remains elevated owing in part to geopolitical developments, domestic spending has been resilient, productivity growth strong, and capital investment is robust
01:30:57Job gains have kept pace with the workforce, and the unemployment rate has changed little, but inflation remains elevated
01:31:05Today's policy action will support a timelier return to the committee's 2% goal
01:31:15This committee will deliver price stability
01:31:18Now, I'll go into some further detail
01:31:23Our decision comes at a time when the American economy..
01:31:26The economy appears to be strengthening
01:31:28New hiring, private sector earnings, and business capital investment—each of these markers has improved in recent months and is pointing in a good direction
01:31:38Credit flows have been robust, particularly for businesses
01:31:44And as I said at the policy symposium in Jackson Hole, I would be hard-pressed to describe broad financial conditions as restrictive
01:31:50This view was widely shared by the committee
01:31:57So, we removed a dose of accommodation
01:32:00Consider the geopolitical landscape of shocks and uncertainty, and you begin to appreciate the resilience of the U.S
01:32:07economy
01:32:11Given that resilience and the potential for even greater performance, an attitude of optimism is exactly what I hear
01:32:20Inside the FOMC these last two days
01:32:23One basic sign of strength is the state of America's labor markets
01:32:27The jobless rate remains low at around 4.1%, and both job openings and weekly hours have been increasing
01:32:37Unemployment claims on a four-week moving average are running at levels consistent with full employment
01:32:45So, the labor side of the Fed's congressional committee is in good shape
01:32:51Yet, for more than five years, inflation has been running above target
01:32:56So, our predominant focus is on the price stability side of our mandate
01:33:02The plain fact is that inflation is too high and has been for too long
01:33:09This summer's inflation readings do not tell me that underlying trends have meaningfully improved
01:33:16Based on the Most recent CPI and PPI data suggest that the 12-month change in total PC prices was likely around 3.6% to 6% in August
01:33:24Core PCE and CPI prices are running at about 3.2% and 2.4%, respectively
01:33:32Too many categories are still posting increases above 3% on both a six- and twelve-month basis
01:33:41I noted in Jackson Hole that overall commodity prices also bear watching, and over the intermediate period, the prices of many of these key inputs have risen
01:33:55Since my first FOMC meeting as chairman in June, my colleagues and I have been unequivocal in our commitment to price stability and to our 2% PCE inflation target
01:34:06At our July meeting, we all agreed that inflation remained too high and expressed our joint readiness to act as circumstances might require
01:34:17Require, and a good majority of my colleagues and I thought the wiser course then would be to await new information in the intervening period
01:34:28Last month in Wyoming, I expressed my commitment to a monetary policy discipline, not to a specific decision
01:34:36I defined the standard for action
01:34:39We must be confident that underlying inflation is moving toward our objective clearly and at sufficient speed
01:34:44Today, the FOMC decided that this standard has not been satisfied
01:34:52The committee's unanimous vote shows our resolve to achieve price stability on a timelier basis
01:35:01We aim to ensure that credit and financial conditions are consistent over time with our mandate that relative price changes in some sectors of the economy do not..
01:35:13Broaden that inflation compensation in market prices stays low and that inflation expectations remain well anchored
01:35:22This afternoon, you also received the summary of economic projections
01:35:27It reflects the views of my colleagues on the committee
01:35:31But as in June, I haven't offered a projection of my own
01:35:35But like in June, I said I would faithfully discharge the summary of their projection
01:35:38So here goes
01:35:40In the summary's median projections, real GDP rises at 2.3% this year, 2.4% next year
01:35:46Total PCE inflation runs at 3.7% this year and falls to 2.3% next year
01:35:54The unemployment rate stays steady at about 4.1%
01:35:58The median participant judges that the appropriate federal funds rate will be 4.1% at the end of this year and to Remain there next year
01:36:10Inflation risks are to the upside, while labor risks are roughly balanced
01:36:16In my meetings these last few weeks in Jackson Hole, in Asheville at the G20 meeting which the US hosted, and at a central bank conference in Basel, it was evident that most advanced economies are facing price pressures
01:36:32Their central banks are making their own judgments consistent with their own mandates
01:36:38Our decision today reflects our best judgment in service to our remit
01:36:43The Fed has a role in sustaining the economic progress happening in America right now and the rising opportunities that come with it
01:36:54Those who are least well off have the most to gain from a durable expansion, a solid labor market, and stability
01:37:02Prices
01:37:09We at the Federal Reserve are unwavering in our vital and straightforward purpose: full employment, price stability, and a thriving American economy that sets the standard for the world
01:37:17And with that, I'll take a few of your questions
01:37:22>> I'm going to switch to CNBC really quick because they're just showing the price on here as well
01:37:25>> Thank you
01:37:27>> Uh, Chair Powell, thank you for doing this
01:37:31Um, I'm Richard Escobido with CBS
01:37:35Um, let me navigate over to my questions
01:37:39Um, you know, a quarter-point rate hike does not reopen the path of poor moves
01:37:44Um, and so I wonder how you think these smaller rate hikes will be effective when they can't necessarily address the energy supply side of inflationary pressures
01:37:51>> It's a, it's a Good question
01:37:55Uh, Richard, we cannot affect any individual price, whether it be oil prices or foodstuffs at the grocery store
01:38:00But what we can do and will do is ensure that any change in relative prices doesn't broaden out, doesn't have second- and third-order effects in the economy
01:38:11That's what we're tasked to do, and that’s what we will do
01:38:15>> Colby, >> Thank you
01:38:16Colby Smith in The New York Times
01:38:22When the Fed starts raising rates, it generally follows with a sequence of hikes
01:38:26Is there anything different in today's assessment of the economic conditions that would suggest that the typical pattern does not apply? And I guess, second to that, what impact do you expect higher rates to have at this juncture if the..
01:38:39The bulk of what is keeping inflation elevated is stemming from supply shocks
01:38:42So, we're trying to get to more people
01:38:45I get to cherrypick my preferred question from you, Colby
01:38:47This won't surprise you
01:38:48I'm not in the forward guidance business
01:38:51The decision we made today was a sober decision, serious decision, responsible decision—one that we have been preparing for and thinking about in my 110 or 120 days here
01:39:03You heard from other people in the dots effectively what their forecasts are
01:39:06I'm not going to prejudge any future decisions we make
01:39:12You might have heard me say in Jackson Hole, I committed to a discipline, a set of principles
01:39:18I committed to look outside the window and see what I can observe
01:39:20That's what I did in Jackson
01:39:23That's what we did today
01:39:25>> Edward Lawrence
01:39:27>> Thank you, Mr
01:39:29Chairman
01:39:30Edward Lawrence from Fox Business
01:39:32So, the market priced in a 90% chance of a rate hike today
01:39:36You don't want the Fed to lead the markets
01:39:38Was this a market-led rate hike, and with that, are bond yields going up? That's one of the indicators
01:39:46Um, is debt part of that issue? So, um, I've said this before, I'll repeat it
01:39:49Uh, the Fed has an enormous amount of power
01:39:53These are decisions we make
01:39:55But getting the understanding right between financial markets and the Fed is a balance that I've long thought could be better struck
01:40:05We made this decision today based on our assessment of the situation, based on our assessment
01:40:09Of, uh, the trajectory for employment, based on our judgment on the strength of the economy
01:40:16Uh, sometimes the market, uh, tries to prejudge our outcomes
01:40:19I'll observe market prices and, uh, see what they have to say, but today was our decision
01:40:28>> Steve Thompson with The Washington Post
01:40:33>> Elizabeth, thanks so much
01:40:39Elizabeth Schelsey with ABC News
01:40:44Big picture
01:40:50I wonder if you could tell us just what this move today will actually do for American consumers, and I have to ask, uh, what is your message here to President Trump, who has repeatedly called to cut interest rates, not raise them
01:40:55[laughter] >> Um, I've got nothing for you on a discussion with the president
01:40:59So, but I won't make that count as your question
01:41:04Um, on The American people, as I said in my prepared remarks, the least well-off are the ones who have the most to gain from stable prices
01:41:12The decision we made today was the right decision to deliver on the commitment that Congress gave us to ensure stable prices
01:41:20Moreover, I would say because of the underlying strength of the economy, and because we are, as I mentioned, largely acting consistent with full employment, we can focus on stable prices
01:41:33Some months ago, I said we would deliver stable prices
01:41:35Today's action is consistent with that
01:41:37>> Chris, hi, how are you? Uh, thank you
01:41:47Um, can you tell us a little more about what changed from the July meeting, when, as you noted, the Fed did stand pat until today? And as part of that, could Thank you
01:41:54>> Yeah
01:42:02So, as you might know, I'm not a data point-dependent guy
01:42:09Um, so I won't react one way or another to data that shows up on our doorstep
01:42:14But on your first question, I think the more important one is what has transpired in the seven weeks since we last met
01:42:23First, I would say a good majority of my colleagues seven weeks ago thought that seven weeks is a good period for investment
01:42:30It’s a way to buy time so we can make a wise decision
01:42:32I'll highlight three things that have happened in that interim period
01:42:36One is, um, I may have had a judgment seven..
01:42:37Weeks ago, about the strength of the economy, there has been a pretty wide-ranging set of data, including the labor markets, indicating that the economy has strengthened
01:42:47You might have heard me say that in Jackson Hole a few weeks ago
01:42:50It's a judgment that I have and the committee has
01:42:52Second, inflation trends
01:42:55I said in Jackson Hole, trends matter
01:42:58I said in Jackson Hole, we need to look outside the window and interrogate reality
01:43:03My judgment, some weeks ago, was that the inflation summer trends weren't passing the test
01:43:09I've seen very little information since then that would make me reverse that decision, so I've stuck with it
01:43:16And the third thing that has changed in seven weeks is geopolitics
01:43:20There's no hiding from hot spots
01:43:23Around the world
01:43:27And, uh, our judgment about what is the most likely or least likely regarding the geopolitical situation has changed
01:43:30All three of those things led to a firm, unanimous decision today
01:43:34>> Jones, Financial Times
01:43:37Um, you said today's decision removes a dose of accommodation
01:43:48In your view, and perhaps if you could share views around the table too, are interest rates now at a level that you would describe as restrictive or not? Thank you
01:43:58Uh, I've described previously that I found it difficult to describe financial conditions as restrictive
01:44:07I think I said I was hard-pressed
01:44:09What I heard around the table in the last couple of days is my colleagues were hard-pressed to describe it that way too
01:44:15Um, we Removed a dose of accommodation so that financial and credit conditions would be more consistent with our ultimate objectives
01:44:20That was the decision
01:44:25That was our judgment, and we'll continue to evaluate that prospectively
01:44:30>> Steve Leman
01:44:33>> Thank you, Mr
01:44:35Chairman
01:44:37Steve Leman, CNBC
01:44:40I want to follow up on that question
01:44:41Previously, most Fed officials had described the rate as modestly restrictive, and if you removed accommodation, could you give us your sense of where the Fed funds rate is relative to neutral, and some detail if you wouldn't mind on your sense of whether there is a short-term neutral rate you're aiming for and a longer-term neutral rate? Do you think in terms of those? >> Uh, in a word, no
01:45:05Um, in a few Words, I'd say this
01:45:07Um, I've always been interested in a neutral rate as an academic matter
01:45:14Back when I learned economics, we used to think of it as a Wicksellian rate
01:45:18It's a real equilibrium rate
01:45:21Um, it's useful academically
01:45:24It's a discussion to help us think about policy
01:45:27Do I think it has any operational effect on decisions that we make today? No, I don't
01:45:31>> Victoria, hi, Victoria Aguido with Politico
01:45:34I wanted to ask, you've talked about how you don't like data dependence, including today
01:45:46Um, but heading into this meeting, there was a ton of focus on the August CPI, and I'm wondering if you think that, um, that was appropriate on the part of markets or if you have learned anything about how you might..
01:45:57Approach communications going forward
01:45:59Um, so market participants and reporters, I think generally over the course of the last decade or so, have grown accustomed to waiting somewhat breathlessly on a data point
01:46:13Um, that isn't my view
01:46:16Um, I was not waiting breathlessly on what any particular data was, whether it was retail sales this morning or a CPI print last week
01:46:24Um, I'll just reiterate, trends matter
01:46:28Data points are noisy
01:46:31Data point dependence is a dangerous preoccupation
01:46:34It's not something that concerns me
01:46:37Markets over time will come to understand how this Fed makes its decisions, what's relevant and what's not
01:46:45And I wouldn't want to editorialize that for them beyond it
01:46:47>> Zack
01:46:49>> Thanks for doing this
01:46:51Mr
01:46:52Chairman, Zach Kashack, Washington Examiner
01:46:54Um, I'm just curious
01:46:55A couple of weeks ago, the president uh, sent out a message essentially threatening to cut off trade to certain countries unless rates were lowered
01:47:02Obviously, an unanimous decision to do the opposite
01:47:03What would you say to investors who sort of believe this is another test of the Fed's independence? And then, when was the last time you spoke with the president? Do you anticipate a post-decision meeting, or did you give me a long menu from which to choose? They're all very tempting
01:47:18Um, I don't have anything for you on discussions with the president
01:47:23Um, and I'm not a Wall Street newsletter
01:47:24Um, part of the independence of the Federal Reserve is..
01:47:30We stay in our lane
01:47:33Independence is a two-way street
01:47:35We let people who do trade policy and fiscal policy stay in their lane, too
01:47:38That's how we can stand here and call them the way we see them
01:47:42>> Brian, >> Hi there
01:47:44Brian Chung with NBC News
01:47:50Uh, just wondering if you could explain who is the least well-off, and what does a rate hike do when those people might be pinched by higher mortgage rates, higher gas prices, higher grocery prices, and now broad higher interest rates
01:47:54>> Yeah
01:47:58Um, it's a fair question
01:48:02In macroeconomics, we tend to look at aggregates around here, such as aggregate GDP, overall labor market trends, and the state of inflation
01:48:11A lot of people in Washington spend a lot of time on distributional consequences, and that's their..
01:48:16Job and their business
01:48:17What I was referring to is that the least well-off tend to be people who don't own financial assets
01:48:24Call that a bit less than 50% of the country
01:48:25They don't have equity in their home
01:48:29They don't have equity in a 401(k) plan
01:48:31So, they're living off their paycheck that comes every couple of weeks
01:48:36The thing that we can do consistent with our mandate is twofold: ask ourselves, is the country running more or less at full employment? And we've done that
01:48:44That doesn't mean that individuals aren't searching for a job, but in aggregate, we're running more or less at full employment
01:48:52If so, we can then look at the other side of our mandate and let that be our focus in maintaining stable prices, in an environment where..
01:48:58Inflation is running consistent with our 2% objective, which offers good news because, in that case, when people get their wages, they can put their heads above water and see real take-home pay increases
01:49:10We don't have total responsibility for inflation, but we do have responsibility for stable prices
01:49:15As I’ve said before, inflation is a choice, and today we took a step toward delivering it
01:49:22>> Yes, sorry, from France AFP
01:49:24Are you looking at the other central banks, and what do you think about the European Central Bank's move? They hiked twice this year, but not consecutively
01:49:32Thank you
01:49:40Um, well, I don’t ask them to prejudge decisions that we’re going to make, so I won’t prejudge decisions that they make
01:49:49But I will say this
01:49:50I’ve spent some..
01:49:53Time with, uh, foreign central bank counterparts, not just in the last 20 years but over the course of the last several weeks, as I mentioned in Jackson Hole, at the G20 meeting we hosted in North Carolina, and at a central bank meeting in Basel
01:50:07What I heard around the table from most of the advanced economies is they're suffering from price pressures, too
01:50:14They're making their own choices consistent with their remit
01:50:19It tells me a couple of things: one is when the Federal Reserve makes a policy choice, it matters not just to the U.S
01:50:26economy, but it spills over to the rest of the world
01:50:29To a lesser extent, that's true for them, too
01:50:31When foreign central banks make decisions where they're confronted with higher prices
01:50:35and they choose to be consistent with their remit to, uh, raise rates, then they're helping to quell inflation in their countries, as well as creating spillovers and spillbacks in both directions
01:50:47Beyond that, I won't opine on what other central banks may choose to do this week or beyond
01:50:51>> Nick Timos
01:50:55>> Thank you, Nick Timmeros of the Wall Street Journal
01:51:00Chairman Worsh, last fall you expressed concern that the Fed was about to make its quote sixth or seventh big mistake by deciding the economy was too strong to justify lower rates
01:51:04Now today, you raised rates
01:51:09Can you give some sense as to what changed your own assessment of the U.S
01:51:14economy between then and now? >> So I don't, I don't remember the full context, but I can tell you, uh, Nick
01:51:23About the state of growth now, my suspicion 110 or 120 days ago when I showed up was that the U.S
01:51:30economy was strengthening even over the last several weeks
01:51:32I think we now have data broadly defined that says the economy has indeed strengthened
01:51:36Underlying growth is higher
01:51:39Inflation is the problem
01:51:43Stable prices have been the problem for now more than five and a half years
01:51:53So, what the committee decided to do today was take an action to ensure a timelier return to our price stability objective
01:51:57Price stability is foundational to economic growth, and I think we took an important step today to deliver it, and we did it in part by removing, uh, the dose of accommodation that I, that I mentioned before
01:52:02>> Neil Irwin
01:52:08>> Thank you
01:52:13You, Mr
01:52:15Chairman
01:52:17Uh Neil Irwin with Axios
01:52:20Uh, longer-term bond yields are up quite a bit over the last few months, especially the last few weeks
01:52:23What do you believe the bond market is telling you, especially about the growth outlook, the neutral rate, and what are the implications for monetary policy? >> Yeah
01:52:31Um, let me speak to the history, what bond market prices do prospectively
01:52:33I want to let them do their—I want to let them, uh, tell me any story they wish to
01:52:40I want to try to interrogate that
01:52:43But why did yields rise, let's say, since the last FOMC meeting until now? I'll give you three reasons
01:52:50But I would say these things tend to be overdetermined
01:52:53This is a complicated set of factors affecting the market
01:52:57Important asset anywhere in the world, the 10-year Treasury
01:53:01It's the risk-free asset upon which every price of virtually every asset in the world is related to
01:53:04So I'll say three things
01:53:08First is economic strength
01:53:11I think part of the reason why we've seen, over the course of 2026, long-term yields go up is because the economy is strengthening
01:53:18Second reason, competition for capital
01:53:25The surge in capital expenditures, which I referenced in my remarks, is real, and the so-called hyperscalers are out in the market raising funding
01:53:32So, the competition for capital is real, and I think it partly explains the increase in yields
01:53:36The third is geopolitics
01:53:41The situation in hotspots around the world is driving long-term..
01:53:46Yields
01:53:52Um, it's not simply spot prices of energy or spot prices for corn, soybeans, or wheat, but it's the difference between those spot prices and so-called crack spreads
01:53:58What that means for products that find their way into stores across the country
01:54:04So I think those are the three leading explanations, but certainly not an exclusive list
01:54:09Michael >> Michael McGee from Bloomberg Radio and Television
01:54:15Uh, you said in Jackson Hole that you want to see inflation come down clearly and at a sufficient speed, which is a standard without necessarily a measurable threshold
01:54:26And the reason I ask is because, uh, today you say that today's policy action will support a timelier return to the Committee's 2% target
01:54:33And yet in the Summary of economic projections, the median pushes the 2% target achievement out to 2029, another two years
01:54:42And I'm wondering how you can square those two things
01:54:45>> One easy way to square that, Mike, is those aren't my forecasts
01:54:49>> Those are the forecasts of my 18 colleagues, and I tried to represent them dutifully to you
01:54:56My business is not to give forward guidance, but my commitment in June was to reaffirm to the American people, to anyone listening, that we will deliver price stability
01:55:11My commitment in July was to say we want to buy a little bit of time
01:55:15We want to evaluate what's happening across a range of dimensions
01:55:18And what I said in Jackson Hole in August is we're committed to a discipline, not to a Decision: today's action shows we're serious about this, and we will deliver on the price stability objective
01:55:32As the statement said, we'll do it on a timelier basis
01:55:37That's our decision, and when we continue our discussions over the next several weeks and months, we'll have more to say about it, but I'm ill prepared to prejudge those future actions
01:55:50>> Matt from CNN
01:55:52Thanks, Chairman Walsh
01:55:56Matt Eagle, CNN
01:56:00You've spoken in the past about the positives that could come from the widespread adoption of artificial intelligence
01:56:05How concerned are you, if at all, about these increasingly alarming warnings we've heard from AI leaders about losing control of this powerful technology? and doing real-world damage, damage that would presumably impact the real economy
01:56:20So, I've spent a lot of time thinking about AI, and before I found my way to this post, I spent a lot of time talking about it publicly
01:56:30Um, independence of the Federal Reserve is about staying in our lane
01:56:34We care very much about what's happening in artificial intelligence
01:56:36We care a lot about the implications on the demand side of the economy and ultimately on the supply side of the economy
01:56:42I care so much
01:56:48I think it's so important that we establish a task force that should report by the end of the year to help us think about the implications for our future policy posture
01:56:54But the policy decisions that are made about the risks and..
01:56:59Rewards, the challenges, and opportunities—those are decisions made by other parts of the government
01:57:06I'm going to leave it to them to make those political decisions, those policy decisions
01:57:09The implications of those decisions obviously have some bearing on our day job, and that's where we'll be focused
01:57:16>> For the last question, we'll go to Jennifer Shawnberger back
01:57:19>> Thank you, Mr
01:57:21Chairman
01:57:24Jennifer Shawnberger with Yahoo Finance
01:57:27Inflation has risen mostly from higher energy prices and tariffs, which some say are supply shocks that rate hikes cannot fix and should fade on their own, as long as inflation expectations stay anchored
01:57:39And now that you have hiked rates, do you need to push growth? Below potential, unintentionally pushing weakness in the job market to bring inflation down? And how do those dynamics play out given the forcefulness with which AI is driving the economy right now? >> So, there's a lot there, Jennifer
01:57:59Let me see if I can't do just a little bit of it
01:58:01Um, first, we believe that the unemployment rate is basically running consistent with full employment
01:58:07Uh, I don't believe that we need to do harm to the labor markets to achieve our objective
01:58:14I don't believe that the two parts of our mandate—price stability and full employment—are working at cross purposes over the medium term
01:58:24So, economic growth that is ensuring continuous, sustainable, durable economic growth
01:58:31That's the business we're in, and the job we did today, the job we'll continue to do, is to ensure price stability, which can mean that sustainable, durable economic growth can go on for longer
01:58:44The economy can be stronger, and as I mentioned before, the least well-off can get the benefits of it
01:58:47>> Thank you
01:58:50>> Thank you
01:58:54Ladies and gentlemen, that [clears throat] was Kevin Worsh
01:58:59The S&P 500 currently is now down almost 0.5%
01:59:03Um, it's not a great sign as we end up [coughs and clears throat] seeing not only the more hawkish news of a 25 basis point hike, but then on top of that, the concern of potential future hikes, which is now getting the market concerned
01:59:27I mean, they are uh determined to reach 2% inflation faster than the speed at
01:59:33They were going where? Okay
01:59:39Powell said that the decision to hike rates comes at a time when the economy is strengthening
01:59:44He says that it's hard to call financial conditions restrictive, and that the views that conditions are not restrictive were widely shared by the FOMC
01:59:57Ladies and gentlemen, I also want to get some commentary from—probably one of the best analysts, one of the best retail commentators who cover the macro quite frequently
02:00:12Please cue the Darth Vader noise
02:00:15>> Chris, how are you doing? >> No
02:00:23Um, what's going on, Tanner? How's it going, man? >> Doing well, brother
02:00:28I saw you in chat since I was covering the new bank commentary
02:00:32>> How was that, by the way? You, uh, >> you excited for? New coming to the States? >> Yeah, man
02:00:39I think they have a very interesting market penetration strategy, going after their diaspora primarily in Florida, right? So, the thing is, like, let's say you have family that's either in Mexico, Brazil, Colombia, and you're already familiar with the product, you can kind of work on getting more family members who are already in the United States integrated into the platform
02:01:05And so, the dollar amount—so even if they were able to capture a very small subset of the overall U.S
02:01:12population, like, let's say they got 10 million users in the United States, over the course of the next five years, those 10 million people can provide a significant uplift in the total
02:01:24Opportunity for them while they're still expanding in Colombia, Mexico, and probably some other areas
02:01:32So, you know, the goal for these guys is to become a super bank that has a focus on customers from diverse backgrounds
02:01:39I'll give you an overview of what they're doing
02:01:49In addition to their current efforts, one of the things that’s very underrated, in my opinion, is that they are very native-first, speaking Spanish and other local languages, because they launched in multiple countries in Latin America, especially Brazil
02:02:07There are Brazilians in the United States, and the thing is, maybe you don't want everything
02:02:14In English, maybe you want some of the stuff in Portuguese, right? Okay, okay
02:02:17I thought you were saying, uh, you said the app is in Spanish, like in Brazil
02:02:20No, they have..
02:02:22no, no, no
02:02:25I'm saying I was giving you an example of how they have a tailored app version that they could probably translate very easily
02:02:27Yeah
02:02:29Uh, Spanish
02:02:31I know that a lot of the major banks have a Spanish version of it also
02:02:35But like I said, Nubank is probably going to lean pretty heavily into that demographic, which is, you know, a good portion of the United States
02:02:45I mean, look at their endorsement deals that they did recently, right, with the football in Florida
02:02:47Inter Miami
02:02:50Right? Inter Miami
02:02:53So, where's the one of the..
02:02:56Largest population of Latin Americans, you know, in the United States? It's Florida, right? They're not going into Wisconsin
02:02:59They're not going into Idaho
02:03:03They're going where their target demographic is
02:03:06Yeah
02:03:10So, once they're there, I think we'll see a very early growth spurt in that area
02:03:13And if they keep gaining traction, then I think it's a very attractive company to be in long term
02:03:21So, well, let's get more on topic
02:03:24Um, Wars just came out
02:03:27I think this was maybe his third time on stage, I think
02:03:30They just hiked rates 25 basis points, and there are calls for another rate hike for the rest of the year
02:03:37However, he did say that they're not going to hold to that
02:03:42They are going to go based on the data
02:03:46But I'm curious, some of your thoughts on the current macro environment, why the market is selling off so strongly right now
02:03:51What did you end up hearing on this call that's making the market react so dramatically? >> I think it's a combination of a couple of things
02:04:01You know, the first one is always the hardest to digest, but then all of a sudden, like, you know, you were saying too, like, oh, uncertainty is gone, right? The problem now is, well, how many more are coming? So, we just went from, are we going to hike? To how many more are we getting? >> Right? So, >> that presents another level of uncertainty that comes literally within hours of this conversation
02:04:27So, one of the things that..
02:04:29Like Kevin Walsh mentioned more than a few times in the call, the strength of the economy is good
02:04:36The strength of the economy is good, which means that it’s more likely that we go towards more hikes rather than cuts, and so the market is probably reacting to that
02:04:46For a long time, we were in a very zero interest rate policy, which meant that the market could sustain a multiple well into the 20s
02:04:55Now, the bond market is actually able to give you a decent enough return, where you're not having to take as much risk anymore
02:05:08I think there's a good chance that we could see some multiple contraction
02:05:11The difference is, though, we're growing so fast, which kind of supports the multiple too
02:05:18But the The worst-case scenario is that, while the economy is healthy right now, if there's any sort of credit event that comes our way in the next six to twelve months, that could be a bigger problem, right? And then what happens is we could see a 2022-style issue, where we had all of this earnings growth that was front-loaded, and then all of a sudden, your earnings growth goes down, and your multiples are going to follow
02:05:45>> Where do you suspect that credit crisis might come from? It could come from a lot of refinancing, including a combination of, you know, homes, commercial real estate, even some banks, private equity— all of these
02:06:03You know, when you have a zero-interest-rate policy, you can buy something that's..
02:06:07Yielding a 5% return
02:06:11So, like, let's say, a private equity company, right? And you're trying to get a return
02:06:15If you could borrow money at 3% and the cap rate on something that you were buying is 8%, that still means you're getting a 500 basis points, you know, spread
02:06:24It's fine, you're making money
02:06:25On the other hand, if interest rates are 5% and that same business is still making an 8% cap rate, now all of a sudden it's not as attractive
02:06:35The problem is, a lot of these private equity companies bought a lot of these businesses when they were in zero mode
02:06:41The problem is, now if they had all this additional leverage on their balance sheet, if they have to refinance from, let's say, 3% now to six, seven, or 8%
02:06:51That just destroys their, their, their, their whole business model completely
02:06:57And the thing is, the underlying business, they may or may not be generating way more return
02:07:03So that's why you're seeing a lot of withdrawal requests from private equity, and a lot of private equity firms have been crushed over the last probably six to seven months
02:07:13You know, you look at TPG, Apollo, Aries — the question then becomes who's got the worst out there, and we don't know
02:07:18>> Yeah
02:07:23Yeah
02:07:27>> You know, even companies like Shift4, I was a shareholder in that name
02:07:32I'm no longer a shareholder, but [clears throat], in 2021, they took on a bunch of debt, and everyone points to the balance sheet, but then you go, "Okay, well, it's got a 0% coupon." Like, it doesn't matter
02:07:42>> But now it's coming up to maturity in 2026, all the way to 2029
02:07:44And if you're going to refinance or refinance that, then that's at a completely different rate than what you got in 2021, >> you know
02:07:54So, the market's obviously ahead of that, and that's why the company's been taking a big hit as well
02:08:00But, um, I'll show you something
02:08:02>> That's the only company
02:08:04>> Yeah
02:08:05Me and, me and Steve, like, we were just basically like spitballing
02:08:07Steve was like, I think Pepsi is undervalued
02:08:10And I said, okay, let's take a look
02:08:12And the first thing I did was I was like, all right, let's take a look at their debt
02:08:14And I'm like, whoa, wait a second
02:08:16They have a..
02:08:18A lot of debt that's coming due was at very low maturity, and it's now coming due
02:08:20So, for example, this issue is in 2027
02:08:22This one is in 2026
02:08:24This one is in 2029
02:08:27And look at the rates they were paying at the time—they were paying literally around 3%
02:08:34 >> Let me try to make this as big as possible
02:08:36 >> Yeah
02:08:38If they have to refinance, they're not getting 3% now
02:08:40Their newer issuances here are probably going to be closer to seven or eight percent
02:08:47So, if you think about it, a 7% yield, they literally went from paying 3% to 7%
02:08:51 So, the company has a choice: Do we take the earnings hit while we deal with all of this, or do we use more of our capital and..
02:09:02Instead of plowing it into share buybacks like a lot of these companies have, they go into paying down their debt that's coming due, right? So a good example is like Fiserv
02:09:13Like a lot of people, you know, they look at Fiserv and they don't necessarily know the business nearly as much, but they took on a lot of debt to finance share repurchases over the last four years
02:09:25Now, everything was good when interest rates were near zero, right? Because you could keep financing it
02:09:31But now you've got a balance sheet that's leveraged with debt, and that debt is now slowly coming due over the next few years
02:09:38And your share price has collapsed, but your net debt to EBITDA is actually above your investment-grade level
02:09:44So now..
02:09:50What do you do? So now what happens is, instead of a lot of that return that shareholders were getting from, you know, share buybacks, most of their additional free cash flow is now going toward addressing the debt
02:09:57So they're paying down the debt as fast as possible now because they need to get that net debt down, which means that for equity holders, you're not going to see a lot of return
02:10:10 Yeah, and I think there were some comments—uh, where was Duckhammer in chat saying, like, you know, an extra 2 to 4% interest expense is not going to kill Pepsi
02:10:20It's like, it's not about killing the companies
02:10:22It's just about, you know, you pay a certain multiple for something, and then if margins start to get..
02:10:28Impacted, then maybe the multiple needs to be rethought, and then, you know, this cascade of the investors who are looking for a safe, uh, equity—maybe a dividend company—can rotate their money into treasuries, and then those people who are looking for, you know, higher earning companies end up finding better results in, uh, you know, some lower risk companies
02:10:48And then you have this sort of flee from extremely high-beta names
02:10:52>> Yeah
02:10:55And you can, I mean, you can see the reaction to a company specifically because of, like, look at this
02:10:59>> By the way, we are in free fall on the S&P
02:11:04We went from up 3.3% to now down 0.7%
02:11:06We've seen a >> 1% reversal in the last, like, minute here
02:11:07>> Yeah
02:11:11But if you just look at, like, Pepsi after..
02:11:13After the FOMC, it was like 135, and then automatically the algorithms picked it up and just sold it off a little bit
02:11:21You know, so this is where I'd say,>> you have to, I think we need to, when we're doing our analysis, when it comes to equity analysis,>> one of the things that I think we, you know because we're always investing as a group, we need to take a look at their, a lot of these companies' debt profile files
02:11:43Because, you know, when we were in zero mode, zero mode, you could kind of ignore the debt a little bit because you were basically borrowing for nothing
02:11:50Now you're actually borrowing for something
02:11:53And so, if the margin of the business is like 12%,>> and you're basically, you know, borrowing money at 3%, you're getting a nice leverage
02:12:01Return of about 9%
02:12:09The problem is now, if you're paying 7% or 8% to basically renew your debt and your margin is relatively the same, then all of a sudden your earnings are going to get impacted
02:12:16If your earnings are impacted, then it impacts your share price
02:12:18And so, you know, people will look at companies that have a lot of debt and they'll ask themselves, "Hey, do I really want to be in this company right now? Because it seems that most of the value going forward is actually going towards bondholders instead of equity holders." >> Right
02:12:31Right
02:12:33Now, whenever you see companies that have, like, I think even for PepsiCo there, you looked all the way out to 2029
02:12:41How far out should you consider some of these, uh, you know, the..
02:12:46Maturity on those, um, on those bonds? Like, what is recent? Because obviously the rate, uh, the Fed rate, is going to change a lot between now and 2029
02:13:00So, what is considered close? Like, should we be worried about 2032 debts, or is it only like 2026, 2027, that the refinancing concerns are going to come up? >> I mean, you have to be very company-specific because it really depends on how much of their debt is due in the next few years
02:13:22 >> Like, let's say— >> I'll give you an example
02:13:26 >> Yeah
02:13:30Well, I think the main companies that I’m really thinking about right now, because I’ve been covering a lot of the AI space, are names like Oracle and Core, which have a lot of fixed debt, but obviously it's fixed until you need to refinance
02:13:35 >> That's the..
02:13:38The most important thing, and you just nailed it, which is you know if 5%, 6%, maybe 10% of the debt is coming due in the next 5 years, you're not really too concerned, right? Because that's like okay, you'll refinance, but it's not a big issue
02:13:52The challenge is if you have a business where a lot of your debt is coming due in the next, like, five years, then you've got a problem
02:14:01>> So, five years is what you consider to be like? >> I would say, I would say, yeah, I would say you really have to look at, like I said, you have to look at the total debt
02:14:11Let's say you have a business that's a hundred billion dollars in debt, right? >> But it's spread out evenly over the next 20 years
02:14:14That's not bad
02:14:17Like, you, you'll manage the process, right? It'll be easy for..
02:14:23You to deal with
02:14:30On the other hand, if you have a hundred billion in debt and eighty billion of that is going to be coming due in the next five years, let's say the first year is like 20 billion, then the next year is 40 billion, and the following year is 50 billion
02:14:36You’ve got a major problem coming
02:14:38So what do you have to start doing? You have to say, okay, look, I know that I’m going to have to refinance at a much higher rate
02:14:44I need to be proactive right now by taking more of my cash flow and paying down as much debt as possible, so that I can keep my credit rating at least somewhat high
02:14:53Or I need to figure out a way to extend my debt now going forward
02:14:58It really depends on a good CFO and how they’ve layered that debt, like the smartest
02:15:04Companies, what they've done is they said to themselves, in 2020, I'm going to issue 30-year debt, you know? I'm going to issue debt so far out that I never have to worry about this
02:15:19The stupider companies, what they did was say, I want to save 100 basis points here, 100 basis points there, so I'm going to basically just front-load all of my debt into the next five years because the Fed will never raise interest rates
02:15:35It'll stay >> People do a 100-year bond
02:15:37>> Yeah
02:15:39Yeah
02:15:41Some people, I'm telling you, some businesses, they use that opportunity to go crazy long on their debt
02:15:43Like one of the companies that I like, Verizon, right? Verizon is a very capital-intensive business
02:15:47business
02:15:51They generate a lot of free cash flow, but if you let me just show you their debt
02:15:56They have a lot of debt
02:15:58I think it's in the billions
02:16:01Yeah, but the thing is, if you look at Verizon's debt, it goes all the way out to like 2060
02:16:03And look at the coupons and all of these, you know, like fours
02:16:06Yeah
02:16:09Look at this
02:16:12A bunch of fours, a threes, and ones
02:16:15They have some bonds that go out all the way here
02:16:24So, this is where you really have to do a massive debt analysis to see where these guys have most of their cash flows
02:16:30Verizon right now is actually very smart in that they are buying back some of that debt at pennies on the dollar
02:16:39So, if you..
02:16:42Look at Verizon's tender offers on debt
02:16:44They're saying, "Why don't we just take some of our cash flow and do buybacks of our own debt?" Yeah, right
02:16:48At a cheap price
02:16:52So, let's see which ones
02:16:56Like, look at this right here
02:16:592031, right here
02:17:03They have debentures that go all the way to 2033
02:17:06They're buying them back at a discount
02:17:08So, you can do that—buy your debt back at a discount
02:17:13Now, some businesses, if you have the cash flow, could reduce their debt by almost 40 or 50%, because you have a very attractive situation
02:17:21A good example of this is Charter, which is a cable company
02:17:25Their growth rate is really, you know, terrible
02:17:28But if you look at the price on some of its..
02:17:32Like long debt, like this 2061 debt is trading at 55 cents on the dollar
02:17:36You could do a tender offer and buy up some of these longer-dated bonds
02:17:40And now your obligation just went from $100 in the future to $50 today
02:17:45And so now your net debt to EBITDA goes down significantly
02:17:51 >> So I think that will become quickly a major focus in, you know, investors' views, but I'm curious about what are the names right now that might be popular in view that, like, obviously I cover a lot of, uh, Nvidia, as you know
02:17:58 >> Mhm
02:18:06 >> But I wouldn't necessarily say that they're too, uh, in focus
02:18:13I mean, they did just raise an additional $25 billion or whatever of new debt, but like, that happened last quarter
02:18:17Um, I'm curious about the names that you
02:18:19We're saying these are super popular with retail, and I would be very concerned about those names
02:18:26You know, I'm not sure which ones to look at in terms of risk for debt only because I haven't done a debt analysis on every single one of them
02:18:40And it's really AI, unfortunately, I tried using AI
02:18:42The thing is, it hallucinates a lot, and there is a lot of information that goes into each different tranche, right? I'll give you an example
02:18:52There are certain maturities out there that have different covenants that determine what the price should be versus, you know, versus something else
02:19:04So AI can do a really good job of helping you isolate those factors, and I'm trying to use it
02:19:14It, but it still hallucinates enough to the point where I don't trust the numbers fully just yet
02:19:19It does give you a good direction, though, like that you can use
02:19:23 >> Yeah
02:19:28Because I wouldn't be able to go through this and, like, it would probably have even a few hallucinations, but it's better than my own view of reading all of them separately, you know
02:19:32 >> Yeah
02:19:33Yeah
02:19:35No, 100%, 100%
02:19:36 >> Like, I'm just really interested in these
02:19:37Uh, QXOXO is another one, obviously very rate-sensitive
02:19:39Um, SoFi, Nubank
02:19:40 >> Sorry
02:19:42Give me one second
02:19:43 >> Yeah
02:19:43Yeah
02:19:44Yeah
02:19:45Take your time
02:19:46 >> Yeah
02:19:47What were you saying? Sorry
02:19:47Um, not QXOXO
02:19:48 >> I'm just saying that there's a lot of, I think, retail favorite names that are very interest rate sensitive right now
02:19:57Now
02:20:06And if the market is now believing that not only are we going to see another rate cut this year or rate hike this year, but that we might see rate hikes into 2027, even if you're down on these names, should we essentially cut them and just avoid the 18-month hold? Or is there too much uncertainty between now and then? I think it really depends on you
02:20:15You're going to have to be a lot more case by case, like >> but I'm telling QXOs, SoFi >> Well, there are two things
02:20:28All right, so there's one part: does the higher interest rates impact their actual business itself? And then another one is: do the higher interest rates impact their balance sheet? Because there are two different things, like QXOs suffer because one, they've..
02:20:40Got a lot of debt from all the acquisitions, but then they also suffer from people not building as many homes
02:20:49So they're getting double slammed right now
02:20:51The cruise lines, they're getting hit depending on which one you're in three times because, on one hand, >> you've got higher fuel prices
02:20:58So that's already knocking at their profitability
02:21:00Then you've got higher interest rates, and remember, all of these cruise lines have capital-intensive businesses where they spend a lot of money upfront, and then eventually, those ships get paid back over time
02:21:10So their balance sheets are, you know, loaded up with some debt depending on which one you're looking at
02:21:17Some have better balance sheets, others..
02:21:19They don't have as good balance sheets
02:21:21And if you look at the margins, most of them have margins between 10 and 12%, which means that, theoretically, the amount of, uh, and their growth is not high either
02:21:30Most cruise lines, their growth is like maybe high single digits
02:21:32So, when you think about it, it negatively impacts the valuation as well because now you've got competing capital
02:21:38Like, if I can get a 7% or 8% fixed-rate bond from Oracle, why would I want to buy a cruise line that generates a similar return profile? So, businesses— you really have to take each business and put it into its own bucket and figure out, like, okay, how do these things go? And the good thing is, let's say..
02:22:01Oil prices start to come down, and we begin to see a scenario where rate cuts come back
02:22:11A lot of those businesses are also going to benefit and actually go up fast
02:22:14Yeah
02:22:18So, I'm also curious, by the way, S&P 500 is almost down 1% now
02:22:21Do you think that we could enter a market going forward where, I mean, it's been a long time since equities have been the sole focus of investors, and not only bonds are going to have a good time? I know that you've been focused on this for some time, but that they actually become extremely popular, like retail gets more involved, and Robinhood starts building products for the bond markets
02:22:46Like, I'm curious, I mean, Public does it already
02:22:50I don't know if Mumu does it
02:22:52I know Weeble has..
02:22:57Bonds on there
02:23:02The thing is, like, bonds are not necessarily the most appealing for a lot of retail shareholders, you know, and there is a lot more that goes into holding a bond
02:23:05There's also liquidity
02:23:08Like, most people who buy bonds are not looking for active trading
02:23:09They're looking for a return
02:23:11>> Right
02:23:12>> Right
02:23:13>> And so, there are also many bonds that are not necessarily geared toward retail investors
02:23:18You know, there are plans out there that only accredited investors have access to, like certain bond issuances that only accredited investors can get
02:23:30So, you can't even access those things
02:23:30So, I do think that, you know, if retail investors want to be more..
02:23:37All-encompassing that they should look at the bond market because right now you are getting some good opportunities, like to, to, to basically take on a, >> How much of your portfolio would you say is it 50/50? Are we at 90/10? >> Yeah, I'm at about, I'm at about 50% fixed income right now
02:23:45Okay
02:23:54You know, I have multiple things
02:23:57I have preferred equity
02:24:01I’ve got some private equity
02:24:05I’ve got a few bonds here and there, you know
02:24:06Um, I, I typically like preferred equity because, >> it's more liquid than your straight-up bond because you can buy and sell it very easily on the open market
02:24:14>> You know, there, it's just a lot more liquid
02:24:16So, let’s say I do want to raise capital, like going into the bond market, the bid-ask spread on a bond
02:24:26Could be pretty wide
02:24:28Private equity is not necessarily as wide, and you still get a pretty good return
02:24:32So, but that wideness in the spread is probably just due to the number of people who are actually in the market, because the markets aren't as active as, let's say, equity markets
02:24:40Yeah, no, they're not liquid
02:24:49They're just not
02:24:58So, is there a possibility that we could enter an environment where they actually become extremely popular, where, you know, the average retail investor has 10, 20, 30% of their portfolios in fixed income? Or do you think it really does require a certain type of investor? Because it's not just about the fixed income; I mean, the actual pricing of the bond, you could trade that too
02:25:06No, you could, and that's, that's..
02:25:09One of the really underappreciated parts of the bond market is, because people look at bonds and they think, "Oh, it's just straight-up fixed income," like, I get my 5% a year and I'm just chilling
02:25:14That's it
02:25:18And I'm like, it's not as simple as that
02:25:23Let me show you a screen
02:25:26So, let's say Ford Motor Company, right? It's a good example
02:25:28So, let's see
02:25:30Ford
02:25:32So, Ford has these bonds right here, right? You have the asking price for different maturities
02:25:36Let's see
02:25:40So, these are all of Ford's bonds, right? So, let's say there's this bond here that's trading at, I don't know, 2030
02:25:44It's like $600
02:25:47I mean, it's a 6% yield, but it's trading at 92 cents on the dollar
02:25:50which means that, let's say you buy this, and interest rates, you know, as you get closer to the maturity, >> yeah, >> the asking price naturally is going to go back to that par, which is 100
02:26:08So you can actually get a 6% yield, like not 6%, sorry, you get an actual yield on the face value, but then you also get that capital appreciation that comes from there
02:26:20Now Ford is a good example of a business that at one point was absolutely getting demolished, and some of their bonds were trading literally like, let me see if I can find one that was trading like pennies on the dollar during the dot-com bubble
02:26:34It's probably one of their really furthest >> This is probably happening from a lot of the bonds that were recently issued, um, you know
02:26:41At much lower rates, right? >> Yeah
02:26:44Well, the thing is, Ford has some bonds that were issued literally in the 1990s and 2000s, and when Ford was nearly bankrupt, a lot of those bonds were trading like pennies on the dollar
02:26:57I'm trying to think of, like, let me look at CoreWeave actually
02:27:03CoreWeave bonds have usually yielded a pretty decent return, but see, CoreWeave's bonds are not public
02:27:07>> Let me see
02:27:11[Clears throat] Give me another hyperscaler that could have bonds
02:27:14>> Okay, so Oracle
02:27:17>> Okay, so these are all of Oracle's bonds right here
02:27:20You can see that the maturity on some of their debt, like let's say 2060 or something close to 2047, is around 60 cents on the dollar
02:27:31Getting paid 4%, but you're buying it at 62, which means your yield to maturity is almost like 7.5%
02:27:39Now, the thing is, let's say in the future Oracle starts to make a ton of money and interest rates go down
02:27:48Now, that same bond that's right now at 62 can end up back at 100, and naturally it'll drift to 100 over time anyway, so your actual portfolio will still go higher and higher
02:27:57But the reason why? Sorry, what's the rate on this one? 4%
02:27:59>> Yeah
02:28:01>> Yeah
02:28:04So, you could just find a better rate on newer issued debt, and that's why it's below par right now
02:28:09But here's the thing
02:28:12The reason why it's at 62 is because you can get, let's say, 7 or 8% on other issuances
02:28:18But let's say in the future, if interest rates start… Yeah
02:28:21What happens to this? The price goes up because trying to get newly issued debt that’s not above 4% gets harder and harder
02:28:27Exactly
02:28:33So you can sit on 4% for a bit, and it looks like a better deal
02:28:39And the thing is, that 4% you're getting is based on a $100 par value, but it's trading at 60
02:28:47So your actual yield is closer to 7 or 7.5%, because at the end, it will go back up to, assuming they even get paid back at all
02:28:55I mean, that's the last, or that's the third, that’s the third leg of this— that they might not be able to pay you back at all
02:29:01Yeah
02:29:08So, like, imagine—and maybe I'll explain this, because sometimes bonds can get a..
02:29:14It's a little complicated for people
02:29:16Imagine right now there are three people: me, Tanner, and Matt, right? I say to Tanner, "Hey, let me borrow $100
02:29:22I'll give you 4% a year." You're like, "Yes, Chris, no problem
02:29:25Here you go
02:29:28Here's your $4
02:29:32I expect to be paid back in 10 years." I'm like, "Cool." A year goes by, two years go by, and now all of a sudden interest rates go up
02:29:35And now you're still only collecting $4, and you're like, "Man, I could use this
02:29:40I wish I could get some of this money back so I could reinvest it somewhere else
02:29:45I could get a better yield." So, you say to me, "Chris, I want all my money back." And I'm going to say, "Sorry, dude
02:29:48We have an agreement
02:29:52I'm going to pay you 4% for the next 10 years." So Matt says to..
02:29:55You, "Hey Tanner, I will buy this from you, but I'll pay you 7 cents on the dollar." Right? And you're thinking to yourself like, "Wow." Okay
02:30:00Now, here's the thing
02:30:04I still have to pay 4% to Matt, right? But that 4% isn't on the $60 or $70 that he bought it from you
02:30:08It's on the $100 that I borrowed
02:30:11So at that point, I'm paying Matt $4, but Matt's cost basis is $70, right? And eventually, I'm going to have to pay Matt back in 10 years, but I'm not going to pay him back $70
02:30:21I'm going to pay him back $100
02:30:23So he captured the spread between the price that he paid for the bond and also the interest that he collected over the last 10 years
02:30:28>> Yeah
02:30:32>> But this is because I've got a lot of SoFi people that follow me
02:30:37This is the exact business
02:30:41SoFi's in, and why they're getting hurt right now as rates go up is that their book of loans is essentially decreasing as a percentage
02:30:46Maybe they were valued at $100, and now they're going down off of par because the idea of you being able to get 12% or 11% somewhere else is more likely than it was a week ago
02:30:57SoFi declines because that's their main business; they're like essentially a big bond trader
02:31:02And the thing is, it's all about, and a lot of times people will look at a balance sheet and say, "Well, look, their net asset value is going down," and I'm like, "The NAV is very paper, right? NAVs can always come back to where they are supposed to be eventually because, remember the—" People that borrow money from SoFi, they're going to pay SoFi back, right? So even if, let's say, you have an issuance of $100 to someone and SoFi issued it when interest rates were low, over time those paper losses decrease because people pay off their loans, people, you know, collect interest, and they're able to do stuff over time, so their net asset value goes back to par again, back to $100
02:31:15 >> Yeah
02:31:28 >> Right
02:31:41So I think what happens, >> they do get paid back, but yeah, >> assuming they do get paid back
02:31:48Yeah
02:31:55 So I think the key here, I mean, SoFi — the one thing I will say about SoFi — is that their credit writing standards are relatively high
02:32:02 >> You know, do I like personal loans as a way to make money? Probably not
02:32:05Like, you know, it's un..
02:32:08Know
02:32:10Yeah
02:32:13But then again, you're charging enough interest to make sure that even if you have some defaults, it's well absorbed, and you still get a pretty good return
02:32:15That's fine
02:32:17>> Yeah
02:32:20Um, and then remember, SoFi also has other things that it sells
02:32:22So it's like, oh, I have a personal loan with SoFi
02:32:27Let me also get this service
02:32:29Let me get that service as well
02:32:31And so you can sell them value-added services
02:32:33So I think what it is, is that a lot of times people will focus purely on the net interest income, and they forget that you can get clients and make a ton of money off of them over a long period of time, not just from the net interest income, but from all the services business
02:32:48Like, you know, Nubank said, Like we're making $30 a month from 100 million Brazilians
02:32:51Like, I'll take that all day
02:32:54You know what I mean? >> Yeah
02:32:56Yeah
02:32:58>> You know, >> yeah
02:32:59It's not just the loan
02:33:00You're also their debit cards are tapping
02:33:02You've got the interchange fee revenue, you've got investments, you've got the whole holistic planning
02:33:09And that's why, literally, financial services is the most profitable segment in markets
02:33:13You know, some people underestimate that because of the potential for losses there, unlike what you would see at a tech company
02:33:19Yeah, Meta doesn't have a chance to blow up their balance sheet, or at least not before all this data center spend
02:33:27But, um, financial services do
02:33:32I mean, the other thing is they're also very, very hard to disrupt, especially if you're providing good services, because once you sign up for a banking relationship, you've got auto payments all over the place
02:33:43It's very hard to switch from one banking relationship to another
02:33:45Do you think that AI is going to change that? I don't necessarily think so
02:33:56Do you think that an AI agent will eventually be sophisticated enough to say, "Whenever you go to switch over to a new bank, we will change all of your auto-payments, cancel all the subscriptions you want," and we will be able to go into all those browsers and handle all that? All the paperwork
02:34:15I think there's still a lot of trust that has to be built around AI taking control over your financial health
02:34:21You know, I find it very difficult for me personally to be able to take my personal data, especially something as important to me as my money, and give it to an AI agent and have it access different things
02:34:37It's just, that's a personal preference
02:34:45>> Yeah
02:34:52Uh, so I don't know how much people are, how comfortable people are, like, "Oh yeah, let me give my agent my social security number so they can sign me up for credit cards that give me better interest rates." You know? I mean, I'm sure some people would be like, "Cool, man
02:34:59I'll do that." Other people are like, "Yeah, no, thank you
02:35:04I don't." I think so
02:35:05Like, my dad, until the year 2020, was still paying his bills with checks
02:35:09He would actually send the physical check
02:35:10He's like, "I don't like this, I don't like electronic, I'm not doing it." I was like, okay
02:35:15[laughter] You know, I don't want any hackers taking over my account
02:35:19And there are still people to this day who prefer going to the branches, doing things in person, you know? So, it's one of those things—once you establish a banking relationship with a client, it's very hard to switch out of that, especially if you provide really good services and do a bang-up job with your banking
02:35:34And so, if you look at, like, JP Morgan, right? JP Morgan is one of the Largest banks on the planet
02:35:44The amount of depositors that they have is insane
02:35:46>> But you know what JP Morgan gives their depositors? Nothing
02:35:48It's like garbage
02:35:51Like it's >> Yeah
02:35:54>> You could take that same money, put into a freaking like SoFi and get 4% or 5%, yet everyone has their money with JP Morgan
02:36:02>> Yeah
02:36:10Yeah
02:36:19It's one of those things that, um, it's hard to be super bullish on financial services right now in this rate hike moment, but especially on the fintech side, I can't help but still believe that the fact that JP Morgan treats their customers like trash means people aren't going to change over because they don't have, you know, better APYs, cash back, and all these things
02:36:27Like I, I just can't see
02:36:29A world, even in a hiking rate environment, where people aren't going to switch to SoFi, Chime, or Nubank
02:36:37And I'll give you, I'll give, I'll give you a couple of examples why people like JP Morgan
02:36:44First of all, JP Morgan is, I'm talking about, by the way, for the average customer, not a sophisticated high-net-worth customer
02:36:48Yeah
02:36:52No, I'm going to try to keep it very low level too
02:36:57Just the first thing is, I lived in New York
02:36:58I live in Georgia now
02:37:02There was a JP Morgan branch in New York
02:37:04There's a JP Morgan branch right here
02:37:06Like for me, it's quick, right? But I signed up for a bank called TD Bank in New York
02:37:12Back in the day, I had something called Commerce, North Fork Bank, and then North Fork got bought out by Commerce
02:37:20Bank, and then Commerce Bank got bought out by TD Bank
02:37:22And I've had them since I was 15 years old
02:37:24>> 15, Tanner
02:37:27Just think, I'm 40 right now
02:37:30That's literally like a 20-something plus year history with these guys
02:37:31I moved down here to Georgia, and I have so many autopays
02:37:35I'm like, "Okay, eventually I'll do this, eventually I'll do that." But I always have that lingering feeling like, "Oh, what if I miss something?" And then I also now, I'm trying to buy a home
02:37:47Well, I was trying to buy a home
02:37:50And so I was like, "I can't move my bank accounts right now, otherwise underwriting will be like, 'Hey, we need six months of your bank statements or whatever.'" So, I had to keep all of that going
02:38:00And so, TD Bank, they don't have a branch
02:38:02Here in Georgia, I had to
02:38:04I had to
02:38:05TD Bank does not let you wire money online
02:38:07You have to physically go to a branch in order to wire money
02:38:11I had to wire my escrow agent the money for the down payment
02:38:16I drove to South Carolina because that is the closest bank to me
02:38:17 Just, this is not a good sign that you're telling me they don't have online wiring as a sign of sticking with your bank
02:38:28>> No, no, no
02:38:32But that's what I'm trying to give you an example of
02:38:34JPMorgan Chase does have a online banking brand
02:38:38So, if my money had been in JPMorgan Chase, I would have had to do that >> because they're an actual brand
02:38:45>> But if you were on, you could have just done it from the mobile app
02:38:47>> See, that's the thing
02:38:50I didn't know that
02:38:51Like, until you hit
02:38:53That scenario, you don't know that this is a benefit
02:38:54There are a lot of benefits that many banks and financial institutions have, but because it's not in your face all the time, nor is it something that's required, you don't appreciate it
02:39:02Like, I didn't appreciate having to wire money online until I actually had to do it for the first time in about 10 years
02:39:08>> To the other side of that, because I'm all in FinTech, I don't even have a relationship with a big bank
02:39:17Whenever I came to buy this house, that became a severe problem for me >> because I needed, uh, to get a—they call it something different, like a certified check or something like that for you guys, but >> we just call it a bank draft
02:39:31Yeah
02:39:34>> But I needed a bank draft for the lawyer for the house, and whenever I was contacting my fintech, they were like, "Yeah, it takes 5 days." I was like, "They need it by noon." >> Yeah
02:39:47[laughter] What are you talking about? So, you walk into the branch and they would get it for you immediately
02:39:52I don't have any relationship like that
02:39:56So, I would have been screwed out of the house
02:40:00I don't know what would have happened or how that would have actually closed
02:40:04Luckily, I had a friend with some money, and they knew that I was good for it
02:40:08So, I was like, "Hey, man
02:40:09Can I, can you write me a check for $200,000?" [laughter] >> Yeah
02:40:11And then >> that was nice
02:40:14>> Very nice of them
02:40:15And then I paid them in five days
02:40:17So, I just..
02:40:19Wrote the bank draft into their name
02:40:21But uh, if I didn't have that, there are definitely downsides to the fintech of today
02:40:27>> Yeah
02:40:33But I think a lot of those issues will slowly get solved over time, and I believe it would be a lot harder for the big banks to solve the tech problems and the technological advantages that SoFi, the new banks, Robinhood, and these kinds of companies have right now
02:40:40>> I found it very weird
02:40:45Well, I wouldn't call it weird, but it was very enlightening
02:40:47So I went to South Carolina to do this wire transfer, and I was sitting there in the branch
02:40:57It took about an hour and a half because there were still a ton of people coming in and out of the branch and doing stuff
02:41:07The bank manager who had to do the wire for me, they were sitting there for a good 45 minutes, showing a new client how to use the app
02:41:15And I was like, "Wow, that's actually a pretty interesting thing." Like, you know, I didn't realize that this was still a hurdle for a lot of people
02:41:25You know, you feel like a lot of this stuff is intuitive, but if you're thinking about someone who's like 40, 50 years old, they're still trying to figure things out
02:41:34So, the branch person was actually sitting there showing them, "Hey, you can do this, you can do that, this is how you set things up," and "this is how you can verify your driver's license," and so on and so forth
02:41:45And I was like, "Ah, there's still a purpose," and I, like I said, there's..
02:41:50Still a ton of people coming in depositing physical checks
02:41:52There's a lot of businesses that were doing like exchanges of cash and like change, you know
02:41:54Oh, definitely
02:41:56>> You can't do that online
02:41:58So, >> you know
02:42:00>> Yeah
02:42:02Well, they tried to do that with, uh, you know, some of the fintechs have relationships with the banks, so then they can do deposits and stuff like this, but >> yeah
02:42:09>> I don't know
02:42:12It's definitely not perfect
02:42:14>> Um, but I don't know, man
02:42:16And I just think that >> whenever I look at the valuations of some of these companies, Nubank is like 14 times forward P/E
02:42:20>> This company's growing at 50%
02:42:22>> No, that's why we want to be in it, right? I >> Yeah, that's why I like it
02:42:31>> I I'm curious from your point
02:42:33This is a point that I've brought up
02:42:33No one seemingly is bringing it up
02:42:36Right now, the geopolitical risks in the currency exchange are affecting Nubank 100%
02:42:41Next year, it'll affect them by 95%, and the year after, as they start to make real US dollars
02:42:45Yeah
02:42:49Do you think that their entering the United States actually is better for them in terms of rerating as people treat them more and more like a U.S
02:42:53company, as 5%, 10%, 15% of their income starts coming from the U.S
02:42:56in U.S
02:42:58dollars? Absolutely
02:43:01I 100% agree
02:43:04I think that is a very, very likely scenario that we're going to see more of their revenue coming from the U.S
02:43:16And not to mention, it's going to have less of an FX impact
02:43:18So I agree, I'm right
02:43:20There with you
02:43:23That's a good bear
02:43:25That's a good bull case that maybe a lot of people are not necessarily considering, you know
02:43:32If you do have FX risk, if you're only in Brazil or if you're only in Mexico, but if you also have a portion of your revenue coming from the US, that FX impact is not nearly as bad
02:43:35>> Yeah
02:43:39So, yeah
02:43:42>> Yeah
02:43:45No, that's a very good point
02:43:47>> Uh, Chris, I gotta wrap here
02:43:49Um, is there any last advice you'd give to the viewers? I would say learn about bonds
02:43:53Even if you don't want to buy bonds yourself because you're not interested, when you're looking at a company to invest in, don't just look at it in terms of, oh yeah, I think this company is..
02:44:00Good
02:44:08Look at the capital structure of that company because they could be vulnerable
02:44:15They might look like a good deal on its face, but they could be very vulnerable to the new debt regime that's out there, where valuation is based on a regime of zero to 3% interest rates
02:44:28Now, we're in a completely different world, and interest rates are probably going to be at, let's say, 7 to 8% for corporates for a longer period than people were expecting
02:44:38So more of their earnings are probably going to go toward debt servicing and reducing net debt levels than they did in the previous period, which we had to worry about over the last 15 years
02:44:55So, just keep that in mind if you are investing in a company that..
02:45:00It has a lot of debt
02:45:02Keep the debt in your mind and learn about the bonds they have, because if you don't take a look at that, you're going to get bamboozled into buying a company
02:45:09You're like, "Oh my God, look, the forward earnings are cheap." But then it's like, "Oh, wait a second
02:45:15Over the next five years, they're going to be working on doing nothing but paying down their debt and all of their free cash flow, which in the last five years was going towards share repurchases
02:45:26The next five years are going towards paying down debt," you know, which leaves very little upside
02:45:29 >> Yeah
02:45:30Yeah
02:45:31And then, um, I know we just mentioned this name in common
02:45:32I'm curious if you're still as bullish
02:45:34Where are you on Micron? Is that still a name? Are you interested in that? >> I'm bullish
02:45:37I'm bullish
02:45:39You just heard the news about JP Morgan
02:45:42I think it was JP Morgan that said memory was supply-locked until 2031, and that they would still keep prices elevated
02:45:50So I think, as Micron reports over the next probably four quarters, the cyclicality thesis is going to slowly break down
02:45:56Now, what does that mean? I think Micron is still going to grow its earnings, and they're going to do a bunch of share buybacks
02:46:02So, while I'm not nearly as bullish as you are—because when we were talking, you said this thing's going to be like 3,000
02:46:17I said, the bull case is 30,000, and the base case is 2,000
02:46:18That's what I’m saying
02:46:20>> Yeah
02:46:21So, that’s what Tanner’s..
02:46:22Like this is going to be 3,000
02:46:24I'm looking at this, and I'm like, okay, I think 12,250 is about right, you know, in the short term
02:46:29I think longer term it should be closer to like 1,500, but Tanner's like no, 2,000, 3,000, let's go
02:46:36You know, because I think what it is is like you saw, you saw the rapid ascent of Nvidia, and that's what's driving it
02:46:40But then again, I'm looking at the earnings next year, and I'm just like, "Holy, they're going to be compounding their earnings at a really, really fast pace." But at the same time, I'm just being a lot more careful with the cyclicality argument
02:46:54In which case, my price target by the end of this year is like 1,250, maybe even 1,400 if things go really well
02:47:01But, you know, but like I said
02:47:04That's where we defer a little bit
02:47:05But I think Micron, I'm not writing options or setting any sort of price, and I don't only get paid if it hits three thousand
02:47:14You know, like, shoot for the stars, end up on the moon
02:47:16I'll be happy if it hits 1,400 as well
02:47:20So, um, >> yeah, here's my question to you
02:47:25Have you changed your end-of-year price target for Nvidia? >> Uh, no
02:47:27I still hold the bet with Steve
02:47:29I might be, you know, 5 to 10% nervous that we don't get to 250, but I still believe that we could
02:47:35I, I'm surprised that the market is doing what it's doing
02:47:37I think that we're running into an issue that we've never seen before, which I think some investors are worried about—the concentration of the S&P 500
02:47:47And like, that is..
02:47:49Surprising to me, even though this company is going to do, you know, $15 billion in revenue this year
02:47:55>> Mhm
02:47:58>> And then over $700 billion next year, and it just looks shockingly cheap
02:48:01I mean, look, I think it's shockingly cheap based on those estimates, but I think there's a lot of people who are looking at this and saying, >> "Holy, $700 billion is a lot of money." I don't think that those estimates are correct
02:48:18And so, I think that's what's driving
02:48:25>> That's the low end
02:48:28>> Do you think that's the low end? [laughter] >> I think that's the low end
02:48:32[gasps] >> See, this is where we can both be right and both be wrong at the same time
02:48:38You know, it just depends on the direction
02:48:40And do you really think Is it going to be more low? Like, he said it is
02:48:45Do you tell me when Jensen's predictions have gone wrong? They said they never do midterm guidance
02:48:48It's a 70% supply-constrained outlook
02:48:51>> Mhm
02:48:55>> So what happens if they can get a little bit of additional supply online? The orders are in for Vera Rubin
02:48:57>> Okay
02:48:59We've seen the product
02:49:01We've seen what happens
02:49:03People are willing to pay for AI if the products are good
02:49:04Astra's purchases are off the charts
02:49:11They can't keep up with compute, >> you know
02:49:12>> Yeah
02:49:14I mean, I will say this
02:49:15I was at a poker, uh, poker night with my friends about a week and a half, two weeks ago
02:49:24Everyone uses AI, but no one is really paying for it other than me and maybe one other guy
02:49:32Who gets it for free from work? And I said, why? He's like, I don't really need to add, you know, like they're using it as a search engine basically because they don't know about all this additional functionality that you can get out of it
02:49:46 >> I swear to God, this is a real story
02:49:47Uh, I don't want to leak my DMs
02:49:49Maybe I can screenshot it
02:49:51 >> Uh, we could just say it
02:49:54You just tell us
02:49:57 >> Marshall sent me a message at 3:23 p.m., so this was while our conversation was going on
02:50:00 >> He said, "I hit my usage limit
02:50:01Once it's back in action, I'll have," you know, he's going on about needing more tokens
02:50:05I said, I upgraded your account and I bought more tokens for him at 3:37
02:50:08I bought tokens while we were live
02:50:09I spent $200 on tokens
02:50:11 Yeah
02:50:13>> So, like, >> wait, is Marshall your assistant? >> Yeah
02:50:15>> Oh, I didn't know that
02:50:16I just look at you, man
02:50:18You make enough money to hire an assistant, dude
02:50:20>> Yeah
02:50:20Yeah
02:50:21Yeah
02:50:22I got, I got one employee
02:50:23>> Uh, >> what do they do for you? Do they do research for you? Gather data? >> No, no, no
02:50:33He's not a stock guy, but he edits all my videos, does the thumbnails, titles, and schedules the live streams
02:50:38>> You know, that's actually a really good idea
02:50:40I think Amit's looking for someone right now, too
02:50:42>> Yeah
02:50:44>> It's good
02:50:46It's good
02:50:46If you want, >> I may have to do the same thing
02:50:48I just, I work full-time
02:50:50I also want to do more content
02:50:52I actually want to do a lot more bond analysis and macroeconomics
02:50:53Analysis and just do like a YouTube channel
02:50:57But right now, I'm in the middle of getting this house thing sorted, so I'm going to be a little bit..
02:51:03Hey, listen
02:51:05By all means, reach out
02:51:07Um, I don't mind paying either
02:51:09So, I just need someone to help me track all this stuff, and I don't mind teaching also
02:51:14So, you know, >> and yeah, >> whenever we did the meetup in Toronto, he was the guy, you know, handing out all the drink tickets
02:51:21He organized the whole thing, found the venue
02:51:23>> Nice
02:51:24>> So, >> yeah, man
02:51:29Let me know
02:51:33Let me know
02:51:37So, um, I was going to tell you, Tanner, let's try to do this semi-regularly, where we can actually take a deep dive into a lot of companies' balance sheets and debt, because I think that's— Actually, going to become a little bit more important going forward
02:51:41>> Yeah
02:51:44No, I'm, I'm, I would love to do a recurring uh show, especially while I'm live, because I need more segments
02:51:48And I appreciate you coming on to accommodate my time here, so you got to let me know when you're free
02:51:52>> All right, sounds good
02:51:55>> I know things are busy right now, so you let me know later
02:51:59But >> we'll do
02:52:00We'll do
02:52:01>> Yeah
02:52:02Thanks, Chris
02:52:03Uh >> later, guys
02:52:03>> Here is Chris's X account for those who want to hear more from him
02:52:08Um, yeah, by the way, you get going
02:52:13I'm going to close up for the next five minutes
02:52:16>> But, uh, Jose said debt
02:52:17What is that? I send all my credit cards and I owe you later
02:52:18Yeah
02:52:20Okay
02:52:21So, ladies and gentlemen, uh, this is..
02:52:23What's happening
02:52:24Um, I'm going to be having a show with Jose Neil Emmett at 4:10
02:52:27Uh, so I'm going to jump off this stream and create another one at 4:10 to talk through a little bit of the market close, what's going on with AI fears
02:52:41If you guys are interested in that, or any of my content that we discuss Monday to Friday, make sure you hit that subscribe button
02:52:51I am pushing to reach 100,000 subscribers by the end of the year
02:52:58I don't even know if we can do it
02:53:02If you guys could possibly make that dream come true, hit the subscribe button down below
02:53:08That's all I ask of you, and hopefully we can get more amazing people like Chris Patel on
02:53:14Um, he does incredible work
02:53:15I really appreciate Chris and his insights
02:53:17Top of that, you know, tomorrow we have an amazing Nvidia video that we haven't even gotten around to yet
02:53:24It's been two days now that I've wanted to talk about it, but of course we've had the Clarity Act, we've had the FOMC, we've been busy
02:53:31The markets are never boring, always interesting
02:53:34Ladies and gentlemen, I can't believe the success and the time that you guys have been spending with me
02:53:38It's just been unbelievable
02:53:42You guys are truly the greatest community on the internet
02:53:46Thank you so much, I really do appreciate your time
02:53:47Bye for now.