00:00Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to HDFC Bank Limited's Q1 FY27 earnings conference call on the financial results presented by the management of HDFC Bank
00:10As a reminder, all participant lines will be in listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes
00:19Should you need assistance during this conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchstone phone
00:27Please note that this conference is being recorded
00:33I now hand the conference over to Mr
00:35Shini Vasan Vedantam, Chief Financial Officer, HDFC Bank
00:38Thank you, and over to you Mr
00:40Vedantam
00:42>> Thank you, NRA
00:44Thank you, and good evening, and a warm welcome to all the participants
00:46Participants, we have today with us our CEO, Sashi Jagdishan, and our Deputy MD, Keki Mistry
00:54I'll hand off the call to Sashi, and then we can take it forward from there
01:03>> Thank you, Shini, and thank you all for joining this investor call for the Q1 FY27 results
01:09As you know, we've had a very challenging period, navigating certain difficulties over the last four months
01:23Our people have maintained a steadfast focus on customer needs and have further built the franchise
01:29It's been a very tough period, but I am really proud of them, and I thank each one of them who stood behind us in maintaining the strength and resilience of the institution
01:43I also sincerely thank the board for their guidance
01:46and more, so Keki Mistry, for chairing as the interim chairman during this period
01:56I also wholeheartedly welcome our new chairman, Rajiv Kumar
01:58We look forward to taking the franchise to the next growth stage
02:03With the appointment of Mr
02:09Raji Kumar, there is a sense of stability and a clear signal to minimize uncertainties in a very short time period
02:14Coming to some of the accomplishments in Q1, the deposit growth continues to be relatively better than the historical Q1 trends
02:26We continue to gain market share both on an incremental basis and on a stock basis as well
02:32Our productivity at the branches continues to improve, and we realize benefits from the investments we have made over the last five or six years
02:44As we had mentioned, envisioned a while ago, I think we are on the verge of pressing the pedal
02:52As you have seen, the advances have done very well over the last three or four quarters, and that continues; the trajectory continues
03:05We are focusing on certain customer segments for more, to manage for more, longer-term opportunities
03:15Our focus now, as I may have mentioned in the past and also in our annual report, is to try to take customer service to a different level
03:23Especially in focusing on the turnaround time of our product and service offerings
03:30We're now measuring it at a more granular level across the length and breadth of the country
03:36We are reimagining our digital journeys and analytics so that we are Able to have new levels of adoption that should sort of bring in a fair amount of efficiencies in the quarters to come
03:53As regards to the environment, we see our policy responses have been very timely and effective
03:58There is a very healthy credit demand that we are seeing in the system as we speak
04:03We believe that the FCNR, or Foreign Currency Non-Resident, policy window that has been offered to the banking system is a great opportunity, and we are focusing on that
04:18We have spent a large part of the month of June completing the documentation and approvals necessary from our side and also from the counterpart banks across various jurisdictions
04:37The ECLGS Scheme 5.0 is also a very good opportunity, and you will see a fair… The amount of growth that we expect to pick up in the mid-market segment
04:50Competition has been very intense on both the corporate side, where the spreads continue to be very thin, and we have been rather selective
04:58However, we are also looking at a holistic primary relationship engagement
05:05The deposit rates on the granular side have been reasonably stable, but on the non-granular side, I think deposit rates have continued to remain elevated
05:20In this quarter, you may see some mixed changes in terms of more non-retail, shorter-term asset mix, and the moderation in the cost of funds
05:33These are all elements that I believe are being managed tactically
05:43Fundamentally, the franchise continues to be strong
05:46Extremely strong, and we will be stepping up the multiple product offerings and one customer view, and you will see the changes happening in the quarters to come
06:00Productivity is a very key focus, and you will see the outcomes of the efficiencies from our focus on digital adoption, process re-engineering, and the customer-centric approach by the senior supervisory architecture, which will ensure that we are able to shorten delivery times much more than we have ever experienced and what the best-in-class markets are offering today
06:37We have provided a fair amount of tools for deeper customer engagement, as I alluded to earlier in terms of technology
06:46We are on the cusp of..
06:55Really, we are harnessing some of the Generative AI technologies in our processes, and we do have a fair number of lighthouse programs that will go into production during the course of the year
07:04Obviously, all of us realize that security is going to be an extremely important part of our strategy, and we are focusing on how we can leverage AI to augment our defense mechanisms as well
07:21There are, of course, risks on the horizon in terms of weather-related disruptions like El Niño and also the geopolitical situation in West Asia
07:38But I think the country has weathered these reasonably well
07:43I think we continue to remain very sanguine
07:48We are prepared for these challenges, as is the country
07:51A company in terms of weathering these, uh, any such challenges in the near future
07:57I once again thank everyone for a wonderful performance despite the many challenges that have happened over these, uh, several months
08:07I think good times are here to come, and we, we, we stay committed to customers and other stakeholders in terms of what HDFC Bank has always been to all these stakeholders over the last 30 years
08:25Thank you so much, and over to Shini
08:27>> Okay, thank you, Si NRA
08:30With that, let's open up the line for questions
08:32We will go straight into the questions relating to the earnings of the quarter
08:39Please go ahead
08:41>> Thank you very much
08:42We'll now begin the question-and-answer session
08:44Anyone who..
08:47Wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchscreen telephone
08:52If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two
08:57Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question
08:58Please note that participants are requested to restrict themselves to two questions per participant and rejoin the queue for a follow-up question
09:08The first question is from the line of Marukanya from Tara Capital Partners
09:14Please go ahead
09:16>> Yeah, hi, good evening
09:18My first question is on margins
09:20Do you think margins have bottomed out now? That's my first question
09:26And you know, what are the headwinds or tailwinds for margins? How would the FCNR mobilization impact them? So that's my first
09:38Question, and my second question is that, uh, does HDFC Bank require one more ED, right? So, when will we hear of that appointment? >> Okay, first, I'll take the first part of the question, which is how to think about the margin
09:50There are two aspects, as you know
10:02One is the cost of funds, which is the biggest opportunity on the margin, where, compared to our historical norms as well as what we have seen in the industry, there can be a 40 to 50 basis points change
10:14But it is not going to change in a hurry
10:16One of the elements of that is the liquidity scenario
10:24The country's liquidity scenario needs to be slightly different from where it is
10:26For example, even in the recent quarter, the average liquidity in the..
10:30The system was about 2.08 trillion
10:32However, the peak was 5.5 trillion, and the trough was a negative 0.43 trillion
10:39So, there's a big difference between the peak and the trough
10:44On average, it is 2.08 trillion
10:46We need the standard deviation from that average to be minimal, so that there can be an active market where rates can stabilize well
10:56That's part of what the policy also envisions, and you've seen that FCNR, or the swap window, and all of that are aimed at ensuring adequate flows and stabilization of rates there
11:08So, it depends on that, and that is what determines both the deposit cost, particularly the non-retail deposit cost, and the retail deposit cost
11:17Deposit costs, as well as various players in the industry, have been circumspect and have remained steady
11:20However, the non-retail deposit costs have been elevated, and similarly, the borrowing mix has not come down yet; we still remain at about 11%
11:33That continues to be a space that we keep watching, but again, it doesn't change in the short term and isn't likely to change quickly
11:40 Kasa mix: again, we've been relentlessly following up on the Kasa
11:46We did, I mean, on a quarter-to-quarter basis, we can't see and don't judge; but on a yearly basis, for the year that went by, for example, March 2023, for which data was published across the industry, while we grew between 9.5 and 10%, we still gained market share
12:04That’s right on that front, so we do envisage, and we are positioned with our distribution and customer addition to achieve that
12:10But again, that is a journey and not a short-term impact
12:17So, that remains on the asset yield
12:19Asset yield is a function of whether, if you ask me, the margins have bottomed out for the year—we can talk about quarter-to-quarter, but we cannot and do not manage for the short term
12:31The reason is that there are timings in the year through which various types of loans get booked, so we have to wait for the year to see the full picture
12:39However, we do believe that on a full-year basis, we are well positioned with our reach and customer segmentation to be better
12:47Regarding the second question you asked about enhancing the number of full-time directors on the board
12:58Yes, there are several milestones which the board is working on, including the appointment of the new Chairman and the new part-time Chairman
13:14Some of these, as you all know, I think a fair amount of action will be visible in a short period, and I would like you to wait for that
13:28>> Okay
13:30Thank you very much
13:33Thanks
13:35>> Thank you
13:38The next question is from the line of Pranov Gundapalli from Bernstein
13:40Please go ahead
13:43>> Hey, good afternoon
13:46Thanks for taking the question
13:47The question is largely about the branch network, where we saw a big boost in FY23 Q3
13:52Do you think the all The branches that were added in that period are scaling up the way, or have scaled up the way you would have initially expected
14:01The related question is on the S segment market shares, which have been largely flatlined despite the branch additions
14:10So, what should change for us to once again start seeing meaningful gains in the S market share? >> Yeah
14:22Uh, what I'll first talk about is the branches as such, right from a branch vintage model
14:27Uh, yes, about 40% of the branches are less than five years old, and yes, those time periods that you mentioned did see a significant addition to branches
14:37If you look at the branch-by-branch metrics, uh, we are about 330 crores per branch
14:41Branch, uh, currently, and if you go back to the 2013 time period, we were 266 crores per branch
14:51And if you go back even further, right, it's less than 200 crores
14:56So, the point is, uh, the branch addition at an aggregate level, uh, the early vintages are performing in line with the legacy branch vintages, and the legacy branch vintages are also progressing towards what a 10-plus-year and 15-plus-year vintage will do, which is demonstrated in the average per branch when you see 330 crores per branch
15:15This is extremely productive and one of the best-in-class in the industry on a per-branch basis
15:23So, the branches are behaving according to the model, uh, that is NVH
15:28Uh, one thing I want to mention is that, while..
15:31It's very important that the branches are the key arm to get the deposits in
15:37Branches are a very significant part of how we grow, part of the retail assets and the small and medium enterprise loans
15:46The wholesale and top corporate mid-market loans are managed centrally through various relationships, but the branch level is where all the other segments operate
15:55The growth that you see there—these branches do deliver all of those things
16:02I just want to leave that thought there
16:04And in terms of the savings account that you mentioned, one thing to note is that, if you look at household deposit growth in the country as a whole, when you examine the data published by RBI across..
16:18Various categories and segmentation of deposits, household deposit growth is one of the lowest among them, right? When you look at the corporates, the government, institutions, and households, the household deposit growth is one of the lowest
16:36That doesn't mean that's how it is supposed to be
16:42It is going through a phase where it remains in the single digits, and the way we have approached addressing this is that there will be only a certain level of savings accounts that any individual will have
16:53This is why the distribution reach and addition of customers is focused on increasing the number of units, and thereby the unit value can marginally go up
17:00Need the unit
17:03So, this is about the unit economics that we need to drive, and at the same time, as we drive the unit economics, we are today a little more than 100 million customers
17:10As we improve the unit economics, keep the costs in check and maintain efficiency so that we can scale
17:16What is happening is that the scaling is occurring with unit economics improving because we are not relying on household deposit growth to go from 8-9% to 15%
17:25That may happen, or it may not, but that's not our approach
17:31Our approach is to increase the number of units to achieve that benefit
17:33So, I..
17:36If I can just follow up, my question was largely on a relative basis
17:39So, you obviously had a very, very high productivity to start with, but if..
17:43You see it relative to the system; it has actually come off a bit in the last three years
17:48Same with, you know, deposit growth, savings growth, etc
17:52You had, we say, a very big delta of the system compared to peers that seems to be narrowing
17:56So, some color on what has changed—like, are you adding the same number of accounts, or are balances coming off? Some color there will reassure that you’ll eventually get back to industry growth
18:07>> So, Pranav, thank you for that
18:08I mean, your number one point is, as you yourself alluded to, the fact that we’ve had a fair amount of investment in distribution over these five years
18:20So, our denominator has a fair number of branches, which will start to generate more and more customers and, hence, more balances
18:32We start to move into the 0 to 5, 5 to 10, 10 to 15-year vintage of these investments that will happen, and you have seen in our presentations how the economic cycles work for different vintage branches
18:53The second point is, despite that, the productivity may have come down relatively, but it's still one of the best in class in the industry
19:03The second part of it is, as Shini was saying, it is a fact that in the last couple of years, or more specifically, over the past three years, the industry and the system were also plagued with a fair amount of accounts that were not necessarily behaving in an orderly manner
19:26And what I mean by that is, you did see a fair amount of fraudsters using accounts as mules, and that started to increase in the banking sector
19:38The system significantly
19:40We needed to, you know, use a fair amount of our algorithms and rule engines to try and see how we can bring in a fair amount of quality acquisitions over the periods of FY24, 25, and 26
20:02I think these are the three or four years, which is what we did, and that was pretty much reflected in the slowdown in the new acquisitions because we were gearing ourselves for a new realm of better quality acquisitions
20:18As we now move forward, you will—and one should—see a step up in, as Shini calls it, unit economics in terms of the numbers moving up, reflecting the quality and the level of diligence that one would necessarily need in this kind of environment
20:41Digital environment, and that is what we are trying to do
20:46So I guess it was a matter of correction to ensure that we put in guardrails, not to bring in unwanted accounts
20:55I think, as we move forward, we are reasonably confident that we will not only reach reasonable, healthy numbers in terms of annual momentum, depending on the capacity of the overall 9,700 branches, but also maintain the quality of acquisition and value per unit as well
21:14So my hunch tells me that you should see reasonably healthy growth over a 1, 2, 3-year period in savings accounts as well
21:27Very clear
21:28Uh, thank you, Shashank
21:30Thank you
21:31>> Thank you
21:32>> Thank you
21:34The next question is from Nikhil Kunal Shah from Citigroup
21:36Please go ahead
21:39>> Yeah
21:41Uh..
21:43Thanks for taking the question
21:45So, firstly, on margins, we are now almost down to 3.4% odd
21:47Borrowing has also come off to around 11% odd, and we had highlighted that it could come down to 8-9%
21:52So, there isn't much room left there
21:54Obviously, it's a competitive environment, but with this franchise, where should we eventually see margins settling, because earlier the expectations were much higher, but now it's trailing a bit? What are the factors that have led to this, and what levers are available to improve the margins? That's the first question
22:12The second is, when you look at it from the perspective of FCNR deposits, last time we were quite active and mobilized a significant chunk
22:19Could you please guide us in terms of this, especially as you mentioned that documentation is underway? But what is the kind of number which we would look at, or maybe the market share in the overall FCNR deposits that we would want to target at this point in time? And thirdly, on CO reappointment, if you can just highlight where the process is, since it is now due, has it already been applied to the RBI, or will there be an announcement from the board regarding the approval, and then we would see the application to the RBI? So, if you can just clarify where we are in terms of the process regarding the CEO appointment
22:33Yeah
22:47>> Okay
22:54I’ll handle the margin then
23:00First, thanks for asking that, Kunal
23:07One, I do want to mention that the borrowing mix, which is at 11%, we don’t expect that it will just settle at..
23:138 or 9, right? In the industry, the industry is more like a five or six percent, right? So we do think that the maturity should take care of that to some extent, and the overall growth should also take care of it to a certain extent because as the growth happens, you don't need to fund only through borrowing
23:34Then the borrowing percentage will decline and come down
23:38Now, that's one second thing connected to that you asked is what is the longer-term margin? Where does this settle? Right? Yeah, see, again, as I mentioned, both from a benchmark perspective and against our peers, and so on, the cost of fund elements that need to play out are very much intact
23:58Hello, please stay connected while we check the management's connection
24:06Thanks
24:13[music] Heat
24:21[music] [music] Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your patience
24:51We have reconnected the line for the management
24:53Kunal, may I request you to help, sir, where the line dropped, please? >> Okay
24:56Thank you
24:59Uh, Kunal, where did it get dropped? Because somewhere the cable..
25:02>> So you were mentioning that the cost of funds benefit is to play out, yeah
25:08>> The cost of funds benefit will play out, and it is very much in the works, both in our annual review of plans and as well as in our strategic review
25:17It's very much where we envisage and are receiving the attention of various verticals to get that right
25:25Both from a mix of products within the deposits as well as a mix of borrowings within that, very much there to get that on the asset side
25:32I was, that's where I think it got cut off
25:35On the asset side, the mix of assets is also an important contributor to a longer-term margin
25:41Today, we are at a 52% retail mix
25:43Based on our experience, we have seen that we were at about 60% or so, and we have always thought that in India's consumption component of GDP is around 60%, and that's where we want to be as far as the retail mix is concerned
26:01Because that's when we'll mirror the economic growth and fortunes in the country, so we can move in tandem with that
26:09And so, that mix of the loan assets is also an..
26:14Important contributor on that, as regards the third question you had on the reappointment of the MD
26:24I can share with you that the GNRC Board is fully seized of the matter, and that is work in process
26:31As they arrive at a conclusion, we will certainly make the necessary announcements in that regard
26:41 And as I mentioned, even in 2014, the pay started to pick up only in the second month after the announcement
26:58The first month, like in 2014, I think we spent a fair amount of time on the documentation part of it and the approvals, both internally and with the respective counterparty banks
27:10You will see in the months of July, August, September, we have certain milestones
27:18I'm sorry I..
27:26I can't really put a number to that in the public domain, but you will see a very handsome, or that's the endeavor, to ensure that we are reasonably strong and, uh, have a significant market share in the market
27:34Can you hear us? >> Thank you
27:42We can go to the next
27:43Thank you
27:44Thank you, Kunal
27:44>> Thank you very much
27:46The next question is from Nanov Shashadri Sin from MK Global
27:50Please go ahead
27:53>> Hi, thank you for the opportunity
27:56Can you hear me? >> Yes, sir
27:57Yes, sir
27:59>> Yeah
28:00>> Thanks for the opportunity
28:02So, a little bit of a follow-up on Pranav's question on deposits
28:04So, am I to understand that this, you know, decline in the CASA ratio is temporary or is it a passing phase, and as your, you know, customer acquisition engine starts to fire in
28:18We will see a restoration, also, uh, seeing, uh, you know, the share of wholesale deposits rise, albeit you know, not by a large amount, but it's gone up from 17% to 20%
28:30And you're right, that does reflect what the RBI has been talking about, in changing the composition of deposits
28:36So, being a large bank, uh, do you think that even if the system, you know, continues to gravitate towards wholesale and non-CASA deposits, you'll be able to get back to your earlier ratios once your customer acquisition engines start to bear fruit? And okay, uh, let me try and address that
28:56Uh, for a start, uh, the endeavor and our vision is to reach somewhere near the pre-merger levels, or just around the time of the merger, which was around 38%
29:12Post the merger, we were 38, and before that, we were 40
29:18And if you, Shini, had alluded to, obviously there has been a significant change in the household savings pattern over the last three years or so
29:29So, what are we trying to do? We're trying to see how we can gain more incremental market share on our low-cost funds, much more than what we have as a stock share
29:41That's the first part of it
29:45Obviously, our appetite to grow is much higher
29:46So, there is a need to, you know, even grow our time deposits, and the result is that, because if you need to grow, then you would need a certain amount of time deposit growth, which invariably over the last couple of years has been much higher than the low-cost funds
30:09Growth rate
30:12So, therefore, the CASA ratio has been a little bit on the lower side
30:16The thought process that we have, as Shini didn't mention, is that we are probably now, after putting in our guardrails in terms of what kind of customers need to come into the institution
30:31From an acquisition perspective, I think we are now ready to press the pedal
30:37I think that is what the entire franchise is driving towards, and maybe over the next nine months, we will see, or we hope to see, a fair amount of change in the acquisition numbers and hence in value
30:52If that really changes the growth rates to be much better than our time deposit growth, I think that will be wonderful
31:03But, of course, the world is not so perfect
31:06Having said that, also, I mean, if you are also 50% of your balance sheet is non-retail, which is wholesale, you know, you cannot really ignore that particular franchise as well
31:19We cannot sort of pick and choose what we want
31:21We need to ensure that we are there for all the needs of the corporate customer, whether it is for deposits, whether it's for cash management, or any other type of facility, as long as the appetite is there for us
31:35So, yes, this particular quarter is, as I said, we’re now not looking at a quarterly measurement; we want to see it at the medium to long term
31:49I think while this quarter it could be a 20% mix in terms of deposits, etc., I guess these things then normalize, and in the medium to long term, I..
32:03I think it’s been more or less stable, which is what we have seen over the last 10 years
32:07Our focus is going to be on retail, because that's where you get the advantage on deposits, and that's where you impact the cost of funds
32:18But at some point in time, from a holistic relationship perspective, we need to also patronize some of the capital markets and the corporate segments as well
32:30Be that as it may, while margin is something that a lot of us have been focusing on, there are areas that we want to prioritize first, because margins will play out as we move forward
32:44I’m sure, assuming all things remain the same, from next year there will be an evolving understanding of how this plays around
32:55It's not something that I'm necessarily focusing on; I need to be in the market
32:59We need to be competitive, but we want to be competitive in such a way that we are able to garner a lot of efficiencies arising out of our enhanced and stepped-up focus on customer service, which will bring down the turnaround time and hence reduce capacities at the back end
33:22These will move to the front end, which will see a fair amount of efficiencies over the next two to three years
33:26This is how we are planning strategically, and if in the process the outcome also helps us in getting a better low-cost funds proportion and, hence, better margins, I think that's a bonus as well
33:34So, we are..
33:42Very focused on three or four things
33:50Customer focus to the level of obsession, riding on technology, especially in terms of embedding AI in our journeys
33:59The third is trying to ensure that our daily operating rhythm just reduces the turnaround time for product and service delivery
34:10The fourth is stepping up and releasing a lot of capacity at the customer-facing end to be able to engage more with the customers, and hence generate more business momentum, which is growth
34:19Additionally, the very fact that we are cutting down on turnaround time and improving efficiency should lead to better cost-to-earnings efficiencies as well
34:31So this is an offset, which is what we are looking at, and if in the bargain we also..
34:39Benefit of, uh, improved CASA ratios, CASA mobilizations in the next two to three years
34:51I think that's going to be a advantage in our strategy
34:53Thanks
34:56Just a quick follow-up
34:59You know, given your investments in front-end technology and customer service, do you think there's also an opportunity to increase wallet share among existing and future customers? You were talking about customer acquisition being a driver, but do you think that’s also an opportunity? >> Yes, absolutely
35:14Because, see, the moment we start to focus on that and when we try to create a kind of best-in-class experience, why would any customer move out? I mean, rather, they would stay
35:27That's one of our key objectives—to gain market share within the wallet
35:30Within our existing base itself, or even from a new-to-bank acquisition as well
35:36So that's going to be our next 2-3 year journey, and we are all seized of this
35:43We're not sort of too worried about the segmentation
35:46I mean, we need to be agile in any customer segment that we're participating in
35:52Today, we are focusing more and more on the retail and MSME segments
35:56I'm sure we have a stronghold in the corporate segment, but even with the implementation of new technologies over a period of time, we have been prioritizing more on the retail and MSME segments
36:10However, I am confident that the wholesale corporate and capital markets segments will also see similar change, and that will also bring a shift in the wallet share
36:15Share increase
36:20>> Thank you so much
36:25Thanks and all the best for the rest of the year
36:27>> Thank you, Su
36:30One thing I do want to add is that while there is a relentless pursuit of granular detail, including current accounts from retail and merchant customers, time deposits continue to be a very big opportunity because only 14% of our customers have time deposits with us
36:48So there is an enormous opportunity for deeper penetration in that area, and it's not just this or that — it's both
36:53I just wanted to mention that
36:58>> Thank you very much
37:03I request all participants to kindly limit yourselves to two questions per participant
37:07The next question is from the line of Sesh Gopati from Mquery Capital
37:09Please go ahead
37:11 >> Yeah, sure
37:13Uh, thanks
37:17Just two questions
37:22One is, your asset growth or your earnings growth has been lacking; your balance sheet growth, right? Look at last year: if I look at this quarter, it's been just 5% balance sheet growth, while the overall growth is well above 13-14%
37:26So, are you confident that over the next 2-3 years, you can achieve earnings growth that exceeds balance sheet growth? Because if you're going to grow at 15%, would earnings grow well above that? Are you confident of doing that? That's the first question
37:43 The second question, you know, I mean, one of the biggest aspects post-merger is the sharp decline in CASA down to 34%
37:49I know there are several reasons for it
37:51All of your peers are at 40%, and even RBI's own..
37:53The financial stability report has explicitly mentioned that the correlation between interest rates and CASA (Current Account Savings Account) is breaking down completely
38:00So, it doesn't mean that interest rates will go down; CASA may go up or something else as per the Reserve Bank of India's own report
38:08So, how can they go back to the levels of 40%? I just wanted an answer to these two questions
38:14Okay, the first one, in terms of profits, just to mention that the headline says which line and mute that line
38:39>> Can I request you to mute your line from your side, please? Thank you
38:45>> Okay, yeah, let's proceed
38:46Suresh, you asked about the profits
38:51The reported profits, when you compare last year to this year, do show a 5% increase
38:56But last year included..
39:01Certain one-time gains, like HTB gains, and then we had a floating provision countercyclical buffer that we added, along with some contingent provisions, and so on
39:06So, adjusted for that, I think in one of our reports that we filed, it shows a 9.8% profit
39:11Yes
39:15But 9.4% to 9.8% profit growth is still lower than the overall balance sheet growth
39:20Correct
39:25We do believe that in the long term, profit growth should be at or above the balance sheet growth
39:30Yes, that's still part of our plans, and that's how we approach it
39:33Again, please don't look at quarter-to-quarter results
39:36But since you touched upon the five, I talked about the 9.8, you should look at the full year, and yes, that's part of how we envisage doing it
39:44The second aspect that you..
39:46Touched upon is also where, uh, the correlation to the rates
39:49Uh, yes, uh, we are cognizant of that fact, and we have seen over the last few years the growth in household deposits and how that is functioning
40:00We are also aware that you and I, including every individual, are going to keep only a certain level of their working capital, so to speak, in the savings account, and similarly, small merchants—who are our target for current accounts—also keep a certain amount in their current accounts
40:19So, the way I was describing to another person was that it is about the unit increase, and that is why the distribution is important
40:26We are adding new customers into that, and we now have more than 101 million, 102 million customers
40:34Relationships, we'll keep building on that, and that's an important ingredient to get that
40:40Yes, it can organically grow at a nominal rate of 10%
40:43Yes, it can go nominally at 10%, but anything beyond that gains on the market share come through the unit economics, which is getting more units for the same, or the same, average balance
40:48>> Thank you
40:53>> Thank you
40:57>> Thank you very much
41:03The next question is from the line of Abishek Murarka from HSBC
41:07Please go ahead
41:10>> Yeah, hi, good evening, and thanks for taking my question
41:14So I'll just squeeze in four direct questions
41:15One, can you quantify how many of the bonds are maturing this year, and probably this quarter, and what is the rate differential? What is..
41:26What is the rate benefit you are getting on the maturing bonds versus the retail term deposit rates? So that's one
41:32The second one is, if I look at your interest income breakup, and if you look at the interest on balances with RBI and others, there are pretty high balances over there
41:43So is there any one-off or some kind of refund or anything else? Why is that growing at, you know, 50% quarter-on-quarter or 20% quarter-on-quarter? So that's just some explanation around that
41:53And the third is, on expected credit losses, can you quantify what would be the one-time impact, and also on an ongoing basis, how much would your credit cost be impacted? So, yeah, those are the three quick questions
42:03Thank you
42:12>> Sir, can you hear us? I believe you're on mute
42:22>> Yeah, uh, the annual report we..
42:23Just published a few days ago, it will show you the profile of maturity of borrowings
42:28You'll see that, over the next couple of years, 40,000 or 50,000 crores will mature
42:35From a rate perspective, it does have a differential; the rate is a little more than 7%, whereas retail borrowings could be around 6%
42:41So, you can pick up 100 basis points, or 125 basis points, depending on the source of the time deposit
42:49If you just replace borrowings with time deposits, or you envisage replacing them with a mix of time deposits and Kasa, but only time deposits, you'll see an increase of more than 100 basis points
42:59 We didn't get the second question
43:01You can repeat it, but we'll move on to the third
43:05Regarding the ECL method, there are two aspects to consider
43:07The overall provision that we are carrying seems adequate and sufficient for the Expected Credit Loss (ECL) methodology, which is going to be implemented from April 1, 2027
43:25One thing to note about the ECL is that it depends on the pool position and the historical behavior of that pool, encompassing various pools of assets
43:42From there, we look forward over a 12-month horizon
43:45That means, for the various categories of pools, we analyze their behavior and then project 12 months ahead
43:52On top of that, there is a flexibility for management overlays, and certain flaws need to be considered depending on the circumstances
44:03We are today, and looking 12 months down the line
44:05We do believe that our reserving process and the reserving methodology are quite adequate, and for us to think about the Stage 3 assets, which are equivalent to NPAs today, that coverage is quite adequate
44:18Stage 1 and Stage 2, which are in various buckets of delinquencies, are as follows: Stage 1 is not in any delinquency stage, while Stage 2 could be in various buckets of delinquency
44:32The floors that are there—for example, the floor in the unsecured category is 1%, and the floor in the secured category is 5%
44:40No, no, Stage 2 is 5%
44:44And so on
44:47So, if you look at that, the standard asset carries a 40 basis points provision
44:51But then here, the floor is 1% for unsecured, uh, for Stage 1, and then for Stage 2, it is 5%
44:57So, there will be enhancements, but those enhancements are adequately covered in various manners through various contingent provisions and other mechanisms that we have
45:06So, we feel confident about working through this process on the reserves
45:09The second question we didn't get—you can repeat it
45:11Yeah
45:14>> Sure
45:17Sure
45:19So, just to clarify, on ECL, at the time of transition, you don't see much of an impact, and you have enough provisions for that
45:22After transition, on an ongoing basis, do you think there will be a material increase in trade costs, like, I don't know, 5, 10 basis points, or 15 basis points, anything of that sort? >> I don't think there
45:34There will be some impact, but it will not be material
45:38As I described, standard assets today are approximately 40, with some around 25 basis points and some around 100 basis points
45:45On average, standard assets are about 40 basis points, which by definition, due to the floors that are in place—an unsecured floor at 1% in Stage 1 (standard), and in Stage 2, for any delinquency bucket, the floor is 5%, and so on
45:58Because of these floors, there will be some enhancement, but overall, based on how we look today and our outlook going forward, it would result in some impact, but nothing material or of significant magnitude
46:08 Thank you
46:11I request all participants to kindly limit yourselves to two questions each
46:14The next question is from… The line of Netanyagarah from Motilal Oswal
46:18Please go ahead
46:20>> Yeah
46:22Hi, good evening, everyone, and thanks for the opportunity
46:24I have two questions
46:26One is around growth
46:28Now, with this, we have started on a healthy note with the FCNR opportunity that is there
46:34Are we looking at an improved growth run rate? This year, we earlier talked about wanting to grow higher than the system, but I believe with the system in a different tangent, I'm not sure we want to really go by that
46:46So any number, if you can share your growth estimate or outlook that we were targeting, that’s one
46:51And the second is on the PCR provisioning coverage; we have seen some downward drift in this number over the last few quarters
47:00Years, so post ECL transition, where we would like our coverage ratio to be maintained
47:04So, I'll answer your first question, and actually, you need to take the second
47:12In terms of growth, you know, we have seen growth
47:16If you see the pack that we already released and the advances mix, we have seen very good growth happen in our corporate and wholesale segment
47:28We have seen that grow by about 18%, and this is continuing from the growth that we had seen in the previous quarter as well, which was around those levels
47:39 We've also continued to see very good growth in our MSME segment, and over there, you know, we have seen business banking, which is the largest component of our MSME segment, grow at 22.3%
47:51Year, and you know this even tops what we had done in the March quarter
48:01Typically, June is a little softer quarter, but you know what we have achieved in June in the MSME segment shows the traction that we are seeing over there
48:11We have also, as you would be aware, launched the ECLGS 5.0 scheme, and we have participated in that scheme
48:20As of the 30th of June, we had disbursed close to 14,000 crores under the ECLGS scheme
48:41I believe that is among the highest in terms of participating banks, because of the spread of customers and the quality of the portfolio we have there
48:54So we have seen, even the..
48:57MSME segment, you know, grows very robustly, and I mentioned to you the pace of growth that has taken place over there
49:08In addition to the wholesale and MSME, we’ve seen good growth also come through in our core retail segment
49:15We’ve seen, on a year-on-year basis, very strong growth in our disbursements in the wheels business
49:24We’ve also similarly seen strong growth in our unsecured business, in terms of disbursements in personal loans and business loans that we do out there as well
49:39Touching upon the mortgage piece again, we’ve seen a growth of close to 14% in disbursements on mortgages on a year-on-year basis
49:50Regarding the two earlier segments I mentioned, we have..
49:56You know, this man mentioned approximately 20-odd percent
49:59So that should give you a flavor of how we've participated in each of these segments, and we do see credit demand holding
50:09We do see a lot of resilience in the economy, even after what we have seen in terms of the geopolitical situation
50:22Yes, we have to wait for the full impact of El Niño and see, because that does have a bearing, which plays out in the third quarter of the financial year
50:34So, therefore, we are well positioned across most of our business segments in terms of how we have approached them, and there continues to be an opportunity and a relationship that we will continue to explore further
50:52Wholesales segment or in the mid-market and retail segment
50:55>> Okay
50:58Thank you, Ka
51:00I'm going to take your second part of the question relating to the coverage
51:05Uh, see, the overall coverage that you see now is 66 percent
51:08Right? Uh, I would draw your attention to go back to 2019, and the reason for that is in between there could be Covid, somewhere up, somewhere down in terms of coverage
51:21And subsequently, there was a merger somewhere up, and then subsequently down
51:25Right, in terms of various coverages, there are several other nuances in between
51:29So, if you go back to the longer term, what the coverage was, it was 71 percent; now it is 66 percent
51:32Right? That is the headline coverage
51:35Yeah
51:39>> Now, if you peel that and get to what is it? If you look at the..
51:42Coverage excluding the agricultural book, which is a secure part of the portfolio
51:44At that time, it was 71; that was the total, and today, excluding agriculture, it is 70
51:50So, the proportion of the agriculture book is currently higher
51:53That is the difference you are seeing in the coverage
51:58That's number one
52:03Number two, in the shorter term—when you look at a quarter or a year's period—it is the secured to unsecured mix that shows the difference
52:08If you look at the unsecured mix, the coverage will be in the 70s, mid-70s, or higher; the unsecured portion will be lower, and the secured will be higher
52:20The unsecured is in the mid-70s or above
52:24The reason for that is, if you look..
52:27At our rate of growth, which we had over a two-year period, some of those retail-type unsecured loans have been modest
52:30Even now, when you look at the book growth on cars, it is 2.3% or so, while the sales and spend grow at 13%, but the book grows at only 2 to 3%
52:46Similarly, the unsecured personal loans and other segments still remain in the single digits, and the dispersals are in healthy double digits
52:53Is it to catch up on that? The PCR (Provisioning Coverage Ratio) is a function of the composition of the book, and where there is a necessity to build reserves, it is done as per a formula
53:06It doesn't go through any kind of discretion; it follows a predetermined formula and gets done, similar to how we benchmark
53:13This is an ECL method as well, which is the stage three ECL provision
53:17We seem to be adequate there too, even in the go-to model
53:20>> Right, uh, thanks for this
53:22I have one small question, one more question if I can squeeze it in
53:28>> Go ahead
53:32>> Sorry, uh, the other question is on the FCR
53:34You talked about that this will gain traction, but how should we benchmark the, uh, whatever quantum we raise? What number should we benchmark that to? Should it be to the outstanding deposit share? Should it be to what you raised in FCNR, in terms of total contribution? Sorry, we lost your audio in between
53:51Hello? >> Nan Nathan Nitan, we're just commencing the drive
54:00While demand is there, we just don't want to commit any number
54:08Let it start to flow, and you will see it
54:11Definitely, if the system is X, we will be a significant portion of the system, as we were in the 2014-2015 period
54:16That is our endeavor, and I think we all, the entire team, are quite eager to mobilize that kind of effort
54:29We are all energized, and I think we are on track towards that
54:32>> I'm sure
54:35Thanks, Ash, and everyone so much
54:37Thanks a lot
54:39>> Thank you, participants
54:41Kindly limit yourselves to two questions per participant
54:43The next question is from L of Piran Engineer from CLSA India
54:48Please go ahead
54:50>> Yeah, hi, thanks for taking my question, and congratulations on the quarter
54:54Firstly, just on the cost of funds, can you highlight how much the cost of funds has decreased quarter-on-quarter as well as year-on-year? >> So I believe you're on..
55:03It is muted
55:04>> Oh, it was muted
55:06Uh, I think it's whatever page the team will tell you
55:18It is the cost of funds is published along with the yield too
55:21Uh, sequential quarter, I think it's almost flat, a couple of basis points plus or minus; it's within the range, and over a period of a year, I think it's about, call it, 40 to 50 basis points, 40 basis points or so, year to year
55:25Yeah
55:30>> Got it
55:35Okay, sorry, if it's published I might have missed it
55:40I thought, uh, I thought otherwise anyway
55:42Sorry for that second
55:44>> Uh, secondly, just in terms of loan growth, barring MSME, which segments are you confident will result in a pickup in loan growth from current levels? Because our retail growth has been fairly, you know, rangebound at 7 to 8%, and uh
56:01I don't know, it doesn't seem to be picking up
56:08>> Yeah
56:14So Viran, the growth, as we have always said, is going to be a function of how the growth is being seen in the economy and in the segments which are bankable by our credit underwriting standards
56:21So, I just alluded to an earlier response, where I talked about the fact that we have seen good traction year on year on the disbursement side in terms of our core retail book, which consists of our wheels business, the unsecured segment, as well as the mortgage business
56:43So, we do see that certainly picking up over the next several quarters
56:47It doesn't happen overnight
56:51It's a journey, and we're well on the path to seeing that really moving forward
56:54We also have seen good..
56:57Growth in the system on the mid-market and corporate side, and we have a very good franchise and presence in that segment where we are market leaders, and we see that also continuing to contribute in the year ahead
57:12So, there are several drivers, including, you know, other products that we've got in our basket on the retail side, such as gold loans, which have started contributing
57:23Yes, right now, it's a little smaller part of the whole retail basket, but it is growing very well
57:31We've also got other microloans that we've started in terms of our Dukan lending, which is bringing up the core retail
57:39So, we do see it being well diversified within the retail space, but I think both corporate and retail along with mid-market should
57:50continue to drive growth in the coming quarters
57:55>> Understood
58:00And just lastly, you all have, you know, had a good leash on costs over the last two years now
58:05Some of it is technology, etc., AI, but how do we get comfort that you are not underinvesting in the future of the business? No
58:12Uh, for the, I think, on the contrary, I think the kind of investments that we have made over a period of five years have been some of the most significant, despite the fact that there have been a lot of events that have happened during these five years
58:36I mean, whether it's the merger, whether it's co-initially, then the merger, and then a fair amount of investments, but distribution of investments in resources and investment in technology has been..
58:45There now, we are probably, you know, as you may have heard, Shini, in the past, there's always an investment phase and then a hardening of the investment phase that will happen
59:01So, we also want to enjoy some of what we have invested in
59:07This kind of gives us the return as investors, and I think you will see that while investments will be slightly muted, especially in distribution for now, technology will continue, because security and AI are going to be a very significant part of any organization that wants to thrive into the future
59:19That will continue to be there
59:32It's just that what you're not seeing is that we have upfronted a fair amount of investments
59:44Therefore, you don't need that kind of large incremental investments, but the investments will continue into the future
59:51As I had mentioned, I think we are probably at the cusp of harnessing these investments, whether it's on branch distribution or in terms of technology investments, and over the next two to three years, these returns in terms of efficiencies will start to play out, which is going to be our key strategy in terms of how we balance growth and efficiencies, offsetting some of the margins, if at all, at the same levels as we are today
01:00:00>> Got it
01:00:09Got it
01:00:18Okay, that was useful
01:00:27Uh, just lastly, if I may request, I do this with all corporates, and this is probably the first
01:00:35I see the challenge I'm having here, but if we could go back to weekday reporting rather than Saturday reporting, it would really help us a lot, and it would help you all because you will get much more investor participation across the globe
01:00:49If you report on a weekday, there is a reason why most of us are all doing it on Saturdays
01:00:56It's not that we have a joy in coming to work on a Saturday, I can assure you that, or to spoil your weekend
01:01:02There is a reason why, because since the markets are closed and a fair amount of people will get exposed to this kind of information throughout the day, we just want to minimize some of the regulatory transgressions that may happen if we do it on a weekday
01:01:20So that's why, a large part of the banking..
01:01:22I think the system is now gravitating towards weekends as a disclosure period for this very reason
01:01:29It's not that we are not going to be ready on a weekday; we would be
01:01:36But it's a little bit of a high risk during that period
01:01:40No, that's true, sir, but I think this argument applies to all banks, not just all companies, not just financials, or all banks across the world
01:01:49I think it's just that Indian banks stand out especially on this front, and more so in an era where you all manage trillions of rupees of money and trillions of transactions per year, which are secure
01:02:01I'm sure you all can keep your information safe while reporting
01:02:04So this is just a request
01:02:07I hope you all consider it with all due seriousness
01:02:09Thought
01:02:11But I my questions are done, and all the best
01:02:13>> Thank you
01:02:15Thank you
01:02:17We'll give a thought to that
01:02:18Yeah
01:02:19Thank you
01:02:21>> Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen
01:02:22We have come to the end of the time allotted for the call
01:02:26I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr
01:02:27Vedant for closing comments
01:02:28Thank you, and over to you, sir
01:02:29>> Thank you all for participating
01:02:31With this, we'll close the call, and if there are any more open questions, we'll continue the dialogue with any of you that you need to talk to either today or any other day
01:02:35Our investor relations team will be available
01:02:40We'll stay in touch
01:02:43Thank you
01:02:45Bye-bye
01:02:48>> Thank you very much on behalf of HDFC Bank Limited
01:02:50That concludes this conference
01:02:52Thank you all for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines
01:02:57Thank you.