00:00Bitcoin continues to hold strong around $86,000, while the dollar hits an 18-month high
00:06Also, we're obviously going to talk about the PCE numbers and the job numbers that came in last week unexpectedly soft, giving the Fed a bit of cover to maybe cut rates and stop the hiking cycle
00:11What a coincidence
00:16It's magic, honestly
00:21We've got a very special guest with Mike, Dave, and me today
00:23We've got Michael Howell
00:25We're going to dive into all of it right here on Macro Monday
00:27Let's go
00:29That's dope
00:43>> Let's do >> Good morning, everybody
00:44Happy Macro Monday
00:46I'm going to go ahead and bring on the crew today
00:48We've got Mike, Michael, Howell, and Dave
00:49Michael, welcome on your first time here on the show
00:53Glad to have you
00:54>> Well, right, Pleased to be here
00:55Looking forward to it
00:56Right, so Mike, we're going to start with the Bloomberg Morning Meeting, but from New York offices instead of Miami offices today
01:06>> Yes, we have the Greenwich Economic Forum starting tonight, so I'm here for that
01:10Honored to be part of it
01:12I'm moderating the crypto panel, which will be interesting
01:15>> Last year was a commodity panel
01:18I forgot to get a chuckle out of Dave on that one
01:22But so, for the morning meeting, Andrew Sacher, our senior economist, pointed out the big repricing started last week with Fed President William Powell
01:28There probably needs to be some patience, with downward revisions in PCE deflation and soft payrolls
01:33This week's focus is on the FOMC minutes
01:35Which came out Wednesday, and the key questions were whether they were leaning forward to further tightening before some of the data kind of came back a little bit
01:42Obviously, we've taken the tightening out of the October meeting
01:45Right now, they expect one more hike from the committee this year, which is not going to be in October before the election, and it's going to be interesting to see how much they might have had a higher rate view before the day that came out, which really took a lot of the hike expectations out of the market
02:01Will Hoffman on rates kind of pointed out that he was perplexed by the abrupt reversal in US rates last week, which are still rising, but globally, on a foreign exchange hedge basis, US rates are among the lowest yields within the G7
02:09Countries
02:16Um, decent supply this week, but last week was a little bit messy, although 10- and 30-year durations are doing well
02:24And he does expect the Fed and the Treasury to potentially do some more long-end buybacks and actually maybe cut supply in the longer end
02:32Audrey Chil Freeman, our FX strategist, pointed out the euro's in the limelight, mostly because of partly French bond pressure, but she expects that to continue, expecting the euro maybe to head towards that one key 1.10 level, a psychological level
02:45But her point was that the headlines and the direction of what's happening in France suggest it may be best to be defensive in FX, meaning short the euro
02:54Chris Kane, our equity strategist, pointed out his key views, emphasizing that..
02:58Weird stuff that's happening in equities, a record amount of negative beta stocks
03:04Now, Chris is very much technical and factor-oriented about 29%, which is the highest in years, with record low pair-wise correlations and things like that
03:12He said 99% of the outperformance from market cap versus ecoate in the past few months suggests a winding down of a rally
03:19He says he doesn't really know how bearish this is, but a lot of strange things are kicking in
03:26I, in my outlook, pointed out—I think we're nearing the peak of the energy crisis
03:30I just noted a few facts, like he did
03:32We've had the greatest rally in the Bloomberg Diesel Total Return Index on a 12-month basis in history
03:39It only goes back 30 years, but it was up 170%
03:41Typically, that kicks in low-price cures
03:43And I just pointed out how metals, um, and cryptos in the same kind of space are completely stock puppets
03:51And then the key theme there is don't fight the Fed
03:53Back to you
03:56>> Uh, let's talk about don't fight the Fed
03:58It's a great, great, great segue to what we should discuss next because I mean I can show you CASH NY, I just happened to bring it up, but we had, you know, Fed decision in October
04:06Obviously, until a week ago, everybody thought they were going to hike again
04:10You can see here, and now it's, I believe, an 82% chance that the Fed maintains rates according to prediction markets
04:18Of course, that is because the Fed's favored inflation gauge, PCE, came in magically
04:21I'm, I'm using the term "magically." Because I'm literally at the point where I've never been a conspiracy or conspiracy theorist in my life
04:29I just don't believe any of the numbers
04:30But PCE came in soft after they recalculated how they do PCE
04:32And job numbers came in extremely soft, and they revised back, as usual, the previous few months to make the job market obviously look extremely weak
04:42So now the Fed apparently is unlikely to continue hiking
04:47Michael, I want to ask you this: doesn't the Fed have data that they're looking at in real time? Why would they hike just a few weeks ago if this is what the job numbers and PCE were likely to come in as? >> Well, I think part of it is that the Fed is the slave to the markets, and the markets are pushing them in this direction
05:05Uh, the The economy is red hot
05:28Um, bond markets are telling us that rates should be higher, and the Federal Reserve is pretty much responding to that message
05:30I think that there's a lot of narrative out there that says that bond yields are rising because of debt concerns, because of disillusionment with the dollar, but that that's plainly rubbish
05:33I mean, that clearly is not going on
05:35What it is, is plain and simply, the economy is red hot, and the bond market's responding to that, and the Federal Reserve is basically following the bond market
05:38That's pretty much what always happens
05:40I wouldn't read too much into, uh, into the fact that rates are going up or whatever, because I don't think the Fed funds rate means the same as it used to
05:43Uh, you're in a world
05:45Where there is, you know, the federal government is in hawk to the private sector
05:50So, in other words, if they start to raise the Fed Funds Rate, given particularly the amount of bill funding that's out there, it's a big income transfer to the private sector
06:00That's a boost to incomes
06:02That's a boost to economic growth
06:04There's a lot of headscratching about what a Fed Funds Rate change really means
06:07I'm baffled
06:10I don't, I'm not sure whether it's a tightening or a loosening
06:12I think, you know, a lot of people are in the same boat
06:14So, I think we got to start looking at some of the other dynamics, and what I would say is, we're living in a collateral-based world
06:21So, the sort of metrics that we got to watch now are..
06:25Things like the MOVE index, bond volatility, and actually the integrity of the pool of collateral that's behind lending
06:31And you have to remember that, and this is a World Bank figure, so, you know, they've done the calculation
06:35Eighty percent of all lending worldwide now is collateral-based, which is a whopping great change, you know, over the last 10-15 years
06:46>> Dave, there's got to be some threads you want to pull there
06:48I saw you >> Yeah, I mean, I look at two things
06:52First, this report—the dichotomy between the payroll numbers and the household survey—is, you know, backed up what Michael was saying, right? You know, the household survey shows an increase in labor force participation, etc
06:58Uh, average hourly..
07:04Earnings are up a bit
07:10You know, it's, I mean, when you look at all this stuff, I don't trust the Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers at all because, in fact, no sane person does, since we know there will be revisions, etc
07:24But what is very relevant, as Michael phrases it, is that the Fed and the US government are hawkish
07:32All of the G7 now are hawkish
07:37You know, Germany used to be the outlier; now they're starting to run deficits for defense, etc
07:40But the truth is that we're in a situation of fiscal dominance, and there's no choice but to monetize this debt because it's the only way they can pay it
07:50And as I said, when they raise rates every 25 basis points, at this point, it adds up to over a hundred billion
07:56The dollar in annual extra interest expense
07:58That's not trivial
08:01That is not a trivial number
08:03I mean, you know, it's like, you have to look at it that way
08:07And so they are sitting in a situation where the bond market is leading, and to quote Mr
08:15McLoone, the Fed is a sock puppet
08:18They have no choice but to go along with them
08:20And if they didn't, their fear is, for example, I think the only reason it was unanimous was because they felt they had no choice
08:28And if they weren't unanimous, they would lose the long end entirely
08:32Now, I don't know if that's true
08:33I think 25 basis points here or there shouldn't matter, but that's what's going on
08:37But I think the most important question is something that, you..
08:40I wanted to pull on what Michael has been writing, which is, you know, about the global liquidity cycle, which has been stubbornly stronger than forecast
08:50But I think it's been stubbornly stronger than forecast because we're running north of $2 trillion deficits in the United States, and they have to monetize it
08:57And China has been monetizing all along
08:59So I don't see how that changes anytime soon
09:02If anything, it feels like it's accelerating
09:06The political situation in the US is such that both sides are trying to bribe the populace, which gives you literally no hope of reigning this in anytime soon
09:15So I'm curious, what do you know? >> You don't even, I mean, they don't even pretend, right? I >> No, there's..
09:20No, there's no pretense
09:22>> Yeah
09:24I mean, best, you know, best a year ago, we were going to, you know, 40 trillion is too high of a number
09:26We're going to work aggressively to cut the debt
09:27Best since a month ago
09:3040 trillion is just a number
09:32We could grow our way past that
09:37No big deal
09:43But anyway, here's the thing: before Michael talks, I want to mention one other thing that I think is hysterical, right? So Trump came out last week and made some comment that the only way to pay back the debt is — he didn't say only, but you know — the way to pay back the debt is through inflation
09:48And I'm thinking that may be the ultimate case of saying the quiet part out loud
09:53My guess is that he was told that in briefings and wasn't supposed to say it but did anyway
09:56>> I don't..
09:59I think we don't have quiet parts anymore
10:04>> Yeah
10:09I mean, but look, whether it was James Lavish, I, or any one of a number of guests on this show, we've made the point that there is no way to pay back the massive G7 government debt without inflation
10:15There just isn't
10:21We all kind of know that, but the government has pretended and pretended and pretended for so long that it's actually hysterical to me that now you have the president kind of saying it out loud, and people are kind of reacting to it
10:28You know, Bitcoin caught a bid when that happened
10:31Gold, you know, sort of caught a small bid when that happened, but it’s actually kind of important because it's not what the general population thinks
10:38Anyway, I've talked for a long time, Michael
10:39I, I, I, I don't know if you know what your thoughts are, but I would love to hear what you think about the global liquidity cycle with, because of fiscal dominance
10:48>> It's expanding
10:50>> Well, I think I 100% agree
10:52I think that what you've got is monetization across the G7
10:54I mean, that's pretty clear what's going on
10:56Uh, at least to those of us who actually look at monetary data, and you can see it buried in the fact that, um, in the US—and the US has led here—by doing a lot of bill financing
11:07Now, the question you have to ask is, if they start issuing a lot of bills, who buys the bills? And the answer is, it's the banks
11:15Now, if banks buy government debt, that's..
11:17Monetization, and plain and simple
11:20And so, what you've got is a trend towards higher monetization
11:24Now, that may be a sort of wonkish interpretation, but it's something that the majority of people don't understand, yet it's a fact
11:29There is monetization going on already
11:32Okay
11:36And you know, a lot of people attribute—and I'll come back to this point—a lot of people attribute the rise in gold to monetization
11:39My point is that's not true
11:42It's not G7 monetization that's forcing the gold price up
11:44It's China
11:46The real monetization in the West hasn't started yet
11:48Okay? Politicians are going to kick the can down the road, as they have done for the last 120 years or so
11:55That doesn't mean you're going to get a financial..
11:56You're just going to get a permanent or progressive devaluation of paper money, and that's what's going on
12:01That's why you've got to own things like cryptocurrencies and gold as some sort of monetary inflation hedge
12:07And I also disagree with the point that people say this is financial repression
12:11It isn't financial repression; it's monetary inflation
12:12Financial repression destroys your income, but monetary inflation destroys your wealth, and that's far more important for the majority of people
12:23So you've got to take these monetary inflation hedges
12:24Now, I made the point just now that China is responsible for gold, the gold inflation
12:28China is pricing the gold bullion
12:31Market at the margin
12:34They are the important buyers
12:36The PBOC is doing that, the People's Bank of China, but also Chinese retail investors are doing that
12:41Now, the reason is that China is suffering from debt deflation
12:43When you look at the data on China, this economy is slow
12:47They’re seeing falling prices
12:49They are wholly dependent on fiscal spending or on export growth to get any kind of momentum in the economy
12:55Classic debt deflation is what Japan experienced
12:58Now, how did Japan dig its way out of that? It devalued the yen, printed money, and got the Bank of Japan to buy Japanese Government Bonds with agility
13:07And what you see is Japan has now climbed out of its debt problem
13:12China has to do exactly the same thing
13:14So China doesn’t… You have to revalue the yuan; it has to actually devalue the yuan, and that's a scary thought
13:20So this is the outlook that I would envision, and what that means is monetization on a mass scale around the world
13:28Politicians everywhere, east and west, are going to kick the can down the road
13:32That's why you need monetary inflation hedges
13:37I, I mean, I'd like Mike to be able to comment, but I do want to pull on a couple of threads there, specifically, you know, Japan climbing out of its debt problem with their JGBs
13:47I mean, I think a lot of people in the world are concerned about Japan's ability and what happens with the rising long end and, in fact, the short end there too
13:53But basically, the..
13:59Interest rates in Japan and what does that mean? Uh, you know, obviously we have the carry trade
14:04You know, there are a lot of other things there, but I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that Japan is climbing its way out of its debt problem
14:11A lot of people think it's more manifesting
14:12So, I'm really interested in that
14:16 >> Well, I think the point is, you just look at the growth rate of the Japanese economy
14:19The Japanese economy, uh, what—let's say 5 to 10 years ago, was basically flat on its back
14:23It wasn't growing at all
14:26Now, you're looking at nominal GDP growth, which is around four to five percent
14:31Japan may have an inflation problem, but that's actually eroding the debt, you know, the..
14:35The Japanese government debt progressively
14:38And that, as you echoed, is what Trump is pretty much saying, you know, he can't keep a secret
14:44Um, and he's, you know, telling everybody this is what's going to happen
14:48>> Mike, >> I think we should express caution when everybody says the same thing after something has happened
14:58Um, and prices have gone up a lot
15:01Markets usually peak in euphoria, and the debt-to-GDP scenario is what really got me bullish
15:08Bitcoin almost a decade ago, a little less, and really jumped off even the horse of gold
15:12Partly because it reached levels that historically say, "Yeah, great
15:14We all get it
15:17We all say the same thing." And markets have already priced it
15:19So, for instance, one lesson of history is that when gold gets exciting, it's best for investors to be cautious
15:22Right now, on a 260-day basis, gold's volatility versus the S&P 500 is 2.2 times, which is the highest since 2007
15:29That's a significant headwind
15:31Also, at the same time, people keep focusing on the asset or the liability without measuring the asset
15:38Sure, $40 trillion is a problem in this country, but if you look at the assets — the $82 trillion, just a simple, real-time measure of the US stock market capitalization — that's the highest in 25 years, just like bond yields
15:47So, I view this as when people all say the same thing after we've risen, typically it's an endgame
15:53And I still see this as an in-game moment right now
15:54You're fighting the Fed
15:55If you're..
15:56Buying any type of risk asset that has a high correlation, certainly with the S&P 500, but any risk asset is a high correlation with the S&P 500 and higher volatility, which includes Bitcoin and gold
16:06You're taking more risk than you should be
16:08And after we've had major pumps and we're in dumps
16:09So right now, we've had pumps and dumps this year, and Bitcoin, gold, silver, platinum, iron ore, copper's next on that list
16:17Here's a fact: copper's 50-day correlation with the S&P 500 is about 64
16:21That's the highest in the history of that futures contract trading in the US
16:25Why is that important? Because of one human being, Mr
16:27Trump
16:29So, I think anything you're looking at right now for that type of scenario is you
16:31You have to be cautious when buying any type of asset, most notably broad cryptocurrencies
16:35If it's not just Bitcoin, then you should also be paying attention to broad metals, including gold
16:38You need to look at the S&P 500 and say, "Yeah, thanks
16:42As long as it goes up, I'll make money." The fact of any value-at-risk model right now indicates they are all going down if the stock market declines
16:47The bottom line to remember, to help address the issue of monetizing debt, is that some of the best places to be have been broad stock markets
16:54We've learned that lesson from the history of the Weimar Republic and similar situations, but I just want to point out that in the assets I've been bullish on in the past, most notably gold last year, the trade is over
17:01>> Yeah
17:03Well, well said
17:05I I think we've got to, we've got to differentiate the cycle from the trend
17:08And I was referring to the trend, but we have to be, you know, cognizant of the fact there's a cycle out there
17:14And in a cycle, the cycles are pretty, uh, you know, pretty ruthless
17:18They will destroy trends temporarily
17:20But I think the point I'm making, to be more explicit, is that if you get a selloff in gold, which is entirely possible, or in crypto, entirely possible, if the Fed, uh, sticks to, uh, you know, what we think it may be doing, is it a selling or is it a buying opportunity? And I think the fact is, if you get dips in these assets, it's worth adding to them, not uh, not piling out, because what we know is that on the other side, there's going to be..
17:46Monetization, because there has to be— they've got no choice
17:47I, I mean, I, I think that the important point here is a question of where you base things
17:54So, like gold, for example, let's just take a step back and look
17:56Gold went from, you know, what, $3,000 or so
18:01It was trading between $2,000 and $3,000, and it rallied all the way to $5,500
18:06Now we sit with a correction, and then it did a classic 50% retracement of the move, literally, and that's exactly where, you know, where we sit—a little bit above that now, at around $4,100, but it's more or less—I mean, you do the math—I mean, it's a little bit more than 50% retracement, depending on where you start the rally
18:21I mean, this does not feel like we're overheated
18:24This is the sort of thing where, yeah, maybe it got overextended, but… Ahead of itself
18:29In fact, we all kept talking about it
18:32One of the things, Michael, that I pointed out when gold was rallying was that there was this hot ball of money
18:37People don't understand this, but one of the largest markets in the world is called Contract for Differences
18:42It used to come out of the old FX world, where you could trade with 100x leverage on Forex, and banks—well, not banks, but companies—started offering this to retail and institutional gamblers or speculators, whatever you want to call them, professionals—they call them hedge funds
18:58I don't really care; they're all the same to me
19:00The fact is, I was talking with, right at the peak of gold, a gentleman who ran one of the..
19:09The largest market makers division, which handled this, was telling me just how incredibly large the money flows were
19:16So to me, that was a red flag, and I knew there'd be a correction, and there was
19:24The correction, as normal, went farther than I would have expected, being more than 50%
19:28So when we talk about what the actual fair price of gold is, I mean, who the hell knows? I mean, gold, by my calculation, at its peak probably hit $8,500
19:38Now it's probably 75% of its value is quote monetary value as opposed to jewelry and industrial use
19:45And I get that by comparing gold to platinum, given platinum is significantly rarer
19:48You know, more, even today, it's considered, if you ask someone, what's the platinum..
19:53Standard or the gold standard, you know, in any conference or anything, they still value platinum more despite gold being roughly twice the price
19:59So, you start looking at these things, and I don't know what fair value for gold is
20:06What I do know is that when we talk about Bitcoin, most of the people who are buying Bitcoin, the smart money, look at it as an option on its ability to actually eat into or surpass gold's monetary, pure monetary value
20:19And that number is dramatically higher than where we are today
20:24So they're very different pictures
20:26In the case of gold, it’s going to follow monetary inflation, full stop
20:30It will do so with peaks and valleys and lots of speculation, so it will get ahead of
20:32Itself
20:34It will go under itself
20:36It will just, it will do that
20:38That is what it's doing
20:40Unless a regime change happens, unless China and other central banks stop buying it as their inflation hedge, it's going to continue to do that
20:49And I think it's probably below its trend right now
20:53So, I would be inclined to be longer
20:55Mike disagrees
20:58He thinks it's going to go back toward 30,000, but that’s where a large part of the debate is
21:01And the Bitcoin question is different
21:03It's whether it will actually continue to grow and succeed
21:05That’s essentially how we’ve framed the argument
21:09I mean, Michael will now, you know, give your side of it, but that’s the way I was looking at it
21:14I'm curious what you think, though
21:15>> Yeah
21:16Well, I mean, I think both assets are good monetary inflation hedges
21:18The fact is that if you look at cryptocurrencies, especially Bitcoin, they're the most liquidity-sensitive assets on the planet
21:25They move many times more for every liquidity impulse compared to gold
21:33So you don't need very much in a portfolio to give you a monetary inflation hedge
21:37But I mean, my view is that you've got about 3,000 to 4,000 years of history behind gold
21:41You've got around 15 years or so behind Bitcoin
21:44Therefore, I have to be more confident that gold, in the long term, is going to maintain the properties of monetary inflation hedging
21:53Bitcoin has certainly done it in the last few years
21:5615 years, and I hope it succeeds
21:59But I think you need both in your portfolio, mixing them by their relative volatility
22:01So it means having a lot more gold than Bitcoin
22:03But both are good
22:05I think, well, right now, we have a sort of Goldilocks moment for Bitcoin, where it seemingly should be going down according to most analysts' opinions, and it hasn't been
22:15Bitcoin's resilience is tested as the US dollar climbs to an 18-month high
22:19Here's the DXY right now
22:23I mean, it's almost mirroring the Bitcoin chart, which has been rising for five or six weeks, steadily after the huge move that it had at the end of August
22:27And the dollar is also rising
22:30That's supposed to be inversely correlated, right? We're supposed to see..
22:36The dollar strength means that risk assets sell off
22:38Bitcoin is not really trading like a risk asset
22:40As we showed you on the gold chart before, gold is now below its 50-week moving average and dropping
22:45Bitcoin now, which is not here on this chart, is above its 50-week moving average and rising
22:51So Bitcoin has not—you know, Mike, we talk about the correlations endlessly, but BIS Bitcoin has not traded like it should or in a correlated fashion to the assets that people historically expected over the past six weeks
22:58It just has not
23:04 >> Six weeks, great
23:10Um, I do enjoy when Dave calls smart money people invest in Bitcoin
23:14If they're smart, they're poorly invested
23:16They are performing poorly
23:18Relative performance, because you just look at Bitcoin versus the NASDAQ
23:22It's at the same level as the first touch in 2017
23:24It's the same levels as 2021, and over that time, it's traded three times the volatility
23:29Now, that's just a fact, but I've heard that from prominent money managers at economic club events in Miami
23:35They look over at Bitcoin and say, "Yeah, great
23:37I do much better risk-adjusted in the NASDAQ
23:39Why would I touch this highly speculative digital asset that is in a space within a space of unlimited supply?" And I like to bring that up because I started calling Bitcoin among a bunch of pigeons last year
23:48At least precious metals are a bunch of doves
23:52There are only four of them: gold, silver, platinum, and palladium
23:53They've reached two new highs
23:54So, I'm glad you mentioned platinum, Dave
23:58The high in platinum was in 2008, which was $2,200 an ounce
24:00Right now, we're at $1,700 an ounce
24:08That's a horrible investment, and I was part of it for a long time
24:12Some of us got lucky to sell in Q1, with the stuff we held for decades
24:13But this is my point: now we have to be careful with how the answers have changed
24:21The answers do change, and that is, since when are central banks the best indicators of what and where to buy? I mean, we know things like Gordon Brown and everything, but the analogy I use for being really bullish on gold was when it was below $2,000
24:33Yes, central banks were buying, but now you have the price of gold..
24:36You look at it versus a bond index
24:39We have a bond index, a Treasury bond index in the US going back to 1973, and the price of gold versus that bond index is the highest in 40 years since 1983
24:47I just look at it, okay, this whole space is great, but the whole thing now is all stock puppets
24:52And then I also point out that just like the US stock market cap and the public debt, which are the highest in 25 years
24:58Forget about GDP, all that stuff
25:00And then you look at the examples when people say what's happening in Japan
25:03Well, they have 300% public debt to GDP and their bond yields are in the low twos
25:12So it's similar in Japan
25:13They're coming out of it
25:16So I look at it this way: let's be careful with CoinSmart
25:17Money, and look at the facts, and that's why I like to point out the facts of poor performance
25:22It's just higher volatility, same performance
25:24My rules of portfolio management and risk management are that that's a dud, and I’ve seen the last six months be great
25:32It's nice to see that bounce, but we have not seen the test
25:33That's what I want to see
25:35 Let me just see the quote from, um, um, um, Mr
25:37from the head of Vanguard, Jack Bogle, about if you can't handle a 20% correction in the stock market, you shouldn't be in stocks
25:50So, I can't even imagine a 10% correction because that would be 25% of GDP
25:54I fully expect everything in my space—no small copper, industrial metals—to drop if the S&P drops 10%
25:57To drop 20%
25:59I fully expect all cryptos to drop 20%
26:02But I'd like to see that test so I can flip over and get out of this mantra of thinking we're all stock puppets
26:09And right now, we are
26:11Give me a test so we can see who's wearing clothes
26:13And right now, at home, by the way, it's October
26:14I mean, being October, I just remember running P&L statements
26:17This is where I had my most extreme wins and losses in October, which is how that works out in the end
26:22I think it's five days from now, cryptos put in their peak last year
26:26>> But I mean, as I showed, I mean, I know I agree with you that long correlation should be determined over the long term, but Bitcoin has been wildly outperforming at a time when it shouldn't have been
26:37And yes, that's not the 10%
26:38Stock market drops, but we have experienced 10% stock market declines over the past few years
26:44It hasn't been devastating, right? And >> when's the last one we had that really—that's my point—we'd see the test
26:48We just haven't seen one lately
26:53As we head towards October, I'd like to see a test because I can then flip my views, and I agree with you, but let's be careful
26:57Over a one- or two-year basis, Bitcoin has certainly underperformed compared to gold and the S&P 500
27:02Sure, it bounced from oversold levels that you guys nailed—certainly, you did, Dave, and you did, Scott
27:05It's bounced from that oversold level's key support around 60,000
27:08But here we are
27:10Let's see how this works
27:13Maybe this month will tell the test
27:15And also, then we have the midterm elections coming up, and people..
27:17Associate our current president with inflation and Bitcoin
27:20Before we go down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, Dave, because I know that once we start, we won't stop talking about anything else
27:26I do want to mention this because Bessant backs off from bond market bravado, saying the house doesn't always win
27:34I don't know if you all saw this, but this circles back to the power of the bond market, calling, I think, the Fed and the Treasuries' bluff right now
27:41But you'll remember that he made the comment that I'm the house, good luck betting against me, right? He talked about that with Japan and the bond market in general
27:48Now, to be clear, his actual quote here was, "The house doesn't win every hand." The house plays the percentages
27:53So it's being a bit overreported as the house again, but he has said now that, uh, he can't control the bond market
27:59He's clearly said that he made the quote, "I can't control the bond market," and I think that he gave the impression, uh, about eight weeks ago, that he could
28:04Right
28:10That's actually when Bitcoin skyrocketed was when Bessant announced the intervention, albeit small
28:15It was the signal that they were going to intervene, and there was some level of pain that they were not willing to endure
28:24But yeah, Michael, I would love your take on this because we had Bessant, obviously, say we're going to, you know, inject some liquidity or increase the bond buybacks
28:31Nothing that either The Treasury or the Fed has done has stopped the bond market from calling their bluff
28:38Is there anything that they can do? I know you spoke to this a bit earlier
28:43Now, do we just, you know, in your estimation, buy gold and Bitcoin and call it a day? >> Well, I think the point is to come back to why the bond market in the US, and let me just draw that distinction, because there are other markets where, uh, you are getting, you know, negative effects from too much debt, and I think Japan is one of those
29:01France is clearly another, but I think in the case of the US, it's pretty clear that it's a strong economy, and it's not really the debt outlook that's really affecting the bond market yet
29:10That may be to come, but it's not right now
29:11Yields in the US have been either flat or falling, which is a pretty good indication that debt is not really a worry to investors
29:19It's a strong economy, and it's basically rate expectations that are really pushing yields higher
29:23Now, that in a way is self-correcting because the more yields rise, the more that is going to weigh on the economy, and you're likely to see some sort of adjustment
29:34And I think that, from that standpoint, and I think Mike makes a good point, that we are in a cycle and you have to remember that
29:42From where we stand right now, I would say on a 12-month view, bond markets look pretty attractive to me, particularly the TIPS market
29:47So I think you could be getting..
29:48Some not bad gains
29:51I'd much rather be there than in stocks, but I, as I say, go back to the golden Bitcoin point
29:55I think those are long-term asset holds in a portfolio, and if they do come down, which they're likely to if the monetary environment gets squeezed more, it's a buying opportunity, not a selling opportunity
30:08But I think you've got to start to think about what's going on in a world where collateral is very important
30:12And two of the key indicators of deteriorating collateral are the rise in bond volatility through the Move Index, which, to my mind, is way more important than the Fed Funds Rate because that determines the collateral multiplier, and basically the… Whole credit system
30:29Uh, and the other thing is basically what the Fed itself is doing in terms of, uh, of money markets and allocating, uh, liquidity into the repo markets
30:40And at the moment, that's pretty quiescent
30:42That's not a problem
30:44But we saw, basically, many episodes in the last two years that could blow up as well
30:49But I think the problem is, in the backdrop, you're starting to see this progressive tightening through the collateral markets, through the rising US dollar
30:56And you know what Scott Bessent is trying to do is to manage volatility as best he can
31:03You know, a lot of the media has been way off on what he's trying to do, suggesting that, you know, six billion of buybacks is going to try and suppress
31:06Yields, I mean, that's bonkers
31:09I mean, Bessons is a clever guy
31:12He's not that foolish
31:14What he's trying to do is dampen volatility, and that's the name of the game
31:18If you dampen volatility, you're going to encourage more of the basis trade, which is going to help depress yields generally, but he's not trying to buy back to push yields down directly, that's for sure
31:29>> He's trying to encourage the market to short the future and buy, and just play the carry trade effectively
31:31Yeah
31:34Keep volatility low
31:36That's what you've got to do
31:39Uh, the Treasury market's all-important
31:42Yeah
31:45The most interesting part of all of this is how strong the dollar has been, and that is a direct result
31:49What you're saying, and I think you're right, is about US economic growth
31:52You know, and that matters because normally when the dollar rallies, that's bad for gold, Bitcoin, etc
32:00Right? You know, typically if you look at historical relationships, although in this particular case I don't think it's terribly significant
32:09I think it's coincidental
32:10I don't know that there's anything causal that goes on there
32:12But, you know, people in the US, we have this conceit where we always look at everything in US dollar terms, right? Fiat, fiat, fiat, except for the fact that the dollar rising kind of indicates that this isn't the dollar falling apart
32:28I mean, if you sit in Bitcoin chat rooms, and I..
32:29I'll be really curious about what your panel is going to be like, Mike
32:32You know, you get a lot of people talking about, well, obviously, the dollar's debasing, etc., except for the rest of the world's papers debasing even more
32:40Uh, and that's extremely important, I think
32:43In the pandemic, you start to look at Europe
32:48I mean, that's a complete mess
32:54You know, the euro is a fragile institution, and you've got a situation where the euro system has no safe asset
32:59I mean, this is crazy
33:01I mean, whoever designed this was mad
33:04The only safe asset in the euro area is the German Bund
33:06So, as soon as you get a crisis, everybody piles into German Bunds
33:10You get spreads blowing out between OATs, Italian bonds
33:12And German bonds
33:14And what the ECB is committed to doing is whatever it takes, which means basically printing money
33:18So whenever there's a crisis, euro supply implicitly goes up massively
33:23It devalues more against the dollar
33:25And then Japan, we've got pretty much the same situation where the prime minister is basically saying there will be no austerity—full speed ahead with monetization
33:35So the Japanese yen doesn't look to be that solid
33:40So there's no every reason why the dollar's going up, and the plain fact, as Dave says, is that all money that's anywhere must be somewhere
33:46So if you've got a strong economy, it's not in financial markets, and it's not—it’s creating a scarcity
33:51of dollars, and that's simply what's going on
33:55>> I mean, I, I, I look at Europe, and I find it, you know, the bond markets are just fascinating, right? You know, France having their 10-year treasury yield being above Italy
34:04Uh, you know, unless I'm missing the fiscal situation, that seems to be a reaction to the protests
34:11Well, not the protests, the videos we keep seeing on TikTok of all the protests in France are probably a large part of that
34:18But, you know, the spread between that and Germany is blowing out
34:22I mean, you know, over, not by a small amount
34:24I mean, it looks like 60 basis points over the Euro, you know, this year
34:27You know, that's a pretty big move
34:29You know, it bails out, I..
34:31This is the question: are they getting a rising debt-to-GDP ratio? All these protests, and you have to remember the presidential elections next year, so there’s not going to be any great cutback in spending, I mean, that’s for sure
34:44You know, at the end of the day, France is going to accumulate more and more debt, the economy is going to look more and more fragile, and the Germans are ultimately going to have to bail it out, but at some stage, they’re going to blink
34:55If they come to their senses, they will pretty shortly
34:56 But what? The implication of a bailout is more liquidity, right? I don’t see any other alternative
35:01 Whatever it takes
35:05That’s the line, that’s the Draghi line
35:10Whatever it takes
35:11 I mean, is there? Is there any truth to you're sitting in Oxford right now? I mean, you know, the UK yields are higher than—or 50, actually more—60 basis points more than even France
35:19Uh, you know, I was reading over the weekend, someone talking about, you know, Brent, whatever
35:26Anyway, you UK, you know, the UK trying to rejoin the Eurozone because get them part of that German bailout possibly
35:33I don't know
35:41I'm just curious, you know, is there any possibility of that or is the UK basically just on the sad train to nowhere when it comes to their financial situation? >> I think you've nailed it, Dave
35:47I think it's on the sad train to nowhere
35:48I think there's no way out
35:50I mean, they've got socialist..
35:51Policies
35:52They have no interest in austerity
35:54That's what's needed
35:56You know, UK gilt yields are actually high and they're probably quite attractive from a short-term perspective at these levels
36:01But, notwithstanding the fact that the long-term outlook is not great, they’re going to have to monetize as well
36:09It’s very interesting that all these central banks and governments are now talking exactly the same story as Scott Bessent, saying we're going to do a lot more bill issuance
36:18Why are they doing bill issuance? Because it’s easy; banks buy that stuff quickly
36:21But that’s monetization, and that’s what these long-term monetary inflation hedges are going to get their
36:28This is a very different world
36:29I mean, people don’t realize how much the world has changed
36:33The only thing these guys can do is kick the can down the road
36:38And you look at the response to every crisis since 2008, they printed money
36:41They haven't thought about reducing deficits
36:44No one is
36:46It’s not possible in this sort of fragile geopolitical world
36:48And you know, I wrote a book a few years ago called **"Speculative Bubbles"**, and it was basically all about the idea that you’re in competition
36:56America and China are at loggerheads in competition
36:59No one is going to force a recession
37:03No one is going to cut back fiscally in this world
37:05They’re going to keep on going, pouring more money into the system
37:08That's exactly what's going on
37:11And I could, you know, I describe what's happening in the US as not Fed quantitative easing, but Treasury quantitative easing
37:14That's the difference
37:18But it's good for the economy, and that's why the economy is racing ahead in the short term because there's so much spending going on
37:20>> Yep
37:22Mike, you got some thoughts? >> Yeah, go ahead
37:25>> Yeah, I had a glitch, but one thing I want to bring up is piggybacking, and I heard part of what you were saying, Michael, and you, David, is the latest headline from the UK expecting to follow the EU with China EV tariffs, time says
37:34And also, my colleague Javier Blouse, who I saw in London last week, mentioned quickly what my new EV says about the future of oil demand
37:42My EV is 12 years old, but this, this..
37:44Severe deflationary forces, most notably renewables and advanced vehicles that are making the rest of the vehicles, some of which Germany and the US are manufacturing, look like buggies coming out of China
37:56It's just the fact that we have 100% tariffs on them
37:58I'll show you where it's heading
37:59This is a pure deflationary force
38:00And look at AI
38:01I heard an AI expert say maybe 22 or so percent of AI use in the US in the next few years will be from Chinese-type entities
38:11Now, I don't know if that's true, but the valuation of our equities is so dependent on this technology, and I see the deflation out of China—regarding commodities
38:18I like it when people say crude oil is going to go to 150; I'm like, what are you missing about..
38:25What's happening with this global paradigm shift, where the world's largest demand pull source on the planet for energy is being replaced with electric vehicles, and all that is being exported to the rest of the world? And their EV sales are rolling over now
38:36They're pressuring the whole EU; the fact that the US has 100% tariffs on it shows how good those vehicles are
38:39Then you see massive supply in commodities
38:42This is all due to rapidly advancing technology
38:45I see a stronger dollar, the Fed tightening, most central banks tightening from the perspective of commodities
38:50This is wonderful—well, I mean, it's a terrible environment, particularly after they've gone up so much
38:54This is just a classic sell signal
38:56And then I also tilt toward the metals, which makes me… Related to cryptos, I put them in the same bucket
39:02The Bloomberg All Metals Index at the beginning of the year was up 22% on the year
39:09That's a time in the beginning of the year when the US was priced for the Fed to cut 50 basis points by the end of the year
39:15Now, the metals are down for the year, and we're looking for the Fed to hike three times
39:21To me, this is just part of that lose-lose situation, where absolutely positively any bullish position you have on almost any asset, even bond yields, depends on the stock market, and right now, it has to go up
39:27So I just kind of keep it simple
39:29 So, Mike, the one point I have to make because it's so important is that people conflate consumer inflation, asset inflation, monetary inflation, and technology being..
39:38What it has been over the last 25 years in a normal scenario—if there was zero monetary inflation in this century—we would have had massive deflation because there's been massive increases in productivity
39:55AI is going to drive a lot more in the service economy, but before that, we had massive productivity improvements, massive other improvements in technology, etc
40:05All of that is consumer deflationary, but we don't see it as deflationary because of monetary inflation
40:11So, what does that mean? It means that the bifurcation between things that technology can't affect and what technology can affect has become much wider
40:21And that's how people perceive it
40:25But I, every time..
40:28You conflate and say, "Well, AI is causing deflation, therefore bonds." It's like, "No, they're very different
40:32AI doesn't affect bond prices
40:33It affects the ability of a human to produce output." And, by the way, that is massive
40:40It's one of the reasons why the biggest jaw chart we've seen has been corporate profits versus wage growth
40:48Corporate profits have gone crazy on the upside, and wage growth has not
40:56We're seeing that, but that has nothing to do with the fact that there's a massive liquidity impulse and huge fiscal deficits
41:04Those are two competing trends in a sense
41:05But when you're talking about assets, to ignore that is a problem
41:12I wanted to set that up
41:15Michael, because this has been you, and I have that—this is literally the stasis, the literal place where you and I disagree, right? Whereas I'm more monetarist and you're more Keynesian
41:22I understand that, but this is a really important point
41:27It's like technology
41:28We are living in the next industrial revolution
41:31We've had two waves: the internet in the 2000s, you know, in the late 90s and early 2000s, and AI now
41:37And, of course, they politicized both, and etc., but it's inexorable
41:42You can't stop innovation
41:45You can try to slow it down, you can let other people have it, but you can't stop it
41:48And that's a very, very big impact
41:52And >> let's tilt over the mic
41:55I'm neither monetarist nor..
41:58I'm just being realistic
42:00And we have to point out that the number one thing driving the whole world economy right now is the excessive valuation of the US stock market, driven by AI and hyperscalers, basically in terms of the top seven or so
42:14All of it is related
42:15We've seen this before
42:17There's always a good reason
42:18It could continue, but it's going to lead to severe deflation in the future, partly because of the technology
42:21Those of us who are adopting it completely are just shifting jobs
42:25The key point is that right now we're in that inflationary period, which is bad for bonds
42:31I mean, just the fact that most central banks are hiking rates, and the number one..
42:34The issue in this country is affordability as we head to midterms, which is a key fact
42:40Also, we're seeing that major shift where we're getting pretty hedonistic Republican or capitalist Republicans, slinging rhetoric, and the whole system always swings back the other way
42:48That's what we're going to see in a few months
42:53I think you'll also see a pretty significant blue wave
42:55However, many voters are voting against rising inflation, energy, and food prices, and against the idea that the rich, particularly those in government, continue to make more money without addressing these issues
43:00That mostly represents the bulk of the voting demographic
43:05So, the macro point to see is how we're all stock puppets right now, especially if you're bullish
43:10Bitcoin or gold, you’ve got to have the stock market go up
43:14I don’t know the US
43:15So that's the one I ask you or anyone: if we drop 20%, the S&P 500 stays down
43:19Well, what does that mean for any position on anything? Of course, that’s a significant 'if' statement, but stuff that used to happen, like I’m quoting Jack Bogle
43:24If you can’t imagine that, then you shouldn’t be in stocks
43:28I can’t imagine it right now
43:30That’s why I think I need to imagine it
43:31 >> Michael, a lot to unpack there
43:34Enjoy
43:37Yeah, I mean, look, I mean I’m very much of the view that, you know, piling into risk assets now is not a great idea
43:40But as I said earlier on, you’ve got to separate trend from cycle
43:45And the fact is, if there is a major selloff in risk assets, you’re going… To have policy makers come back to reflate the system
43:51They can't afford to have a recession
43:56So you're going to get more fiscal spending and more liquidity pumped into the system, as sure as eggs are eggs
44:01I mean, I think that's the backdrop
44:03The trend is there, and you know, people say that this is the end of the financial system, that capitalism is going to end or whatever
44:08Look, for heaven's sake, politicians have been doing this for 150 years
44:12Okay, look at the value of the dollar in 1900 or 1914, and compare it to now—it's basically worth only a few cents compared to what a dollar was then
44:19This is going to go on forever
44:22You're looking at this continued devaluation, but what I'm saying is that..
44:26There's more impetus now because there's a great reluctance, uh, for politicians to bite the bullet and go to austerity or whatever it may be
44:35So, you're going to have to have money printing, and that's what they're pretty much doing
44:39But I do take the point, and I agree with what Mike has been saying, which is that you are somewhere near the peak in these risk asset markets
44:44I think the bond markets are telling you, uh, that there's a lot of opportunity in fixed income over the next 12 months
44:50I mean, to buy TIPS at around 3% yields is a fantastic opportunity
44:54Uh, you know, it's very rare you can make 3% real in financial markets over the long term, but the U.S
45:01government is guaranteeing that
45:03So I think that that's not a bad
45:05A place to be
45:07Uh, do I want to be in bonds long-term? No way
45:09But certainly, as a trade, I think it looks pretty decent to me
45:12>> Michael, let me ask you this, because as I listen to everybody, there's a consensus that money printing is the only way that’s inevitable and what is guaranteed to happen
45:20I guess the question that we never really discuss is what happens if money printing does come in and fails
45:26I think that's what Mike is sort of talking about here, right? Is that you get the money printing, it doesn't work, and then you see the deflationary collapse and we go into a depression
45:36Mike, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think maybe we're not going far enough down the timeline at what could happen if..
45:41The printing failed
45:45>> Well, let's pass it over to Michael, but that's a fact of what happened in Japan 30 years ago and what's happening in China right now
45:49Back to you, Michael
45:51Well, what you've got to understand is that the problem in Japan, and maybe in a lot of Western economies, is that there is a growing burden of debt, and that debt saddles the economy, slowing down the rate of economic growth
46:03So, you've basically got to devalue debt
46:08Now, as I said, the big debt problem—by far and away—the biggest debt problem right now is not the US nor Europe, it’s China
46:16And China’s the economy that has to get out of its debt problem
46:18And, you know, the..
46:20The difficulty there or the difficulty China faces is that the whole integrity of the People's Republic of China is all about creating wealth or continual wealth for Chinese residents
46:28If they fail to do that, then the whole system becomes questionable
46:33Um, so I think they're going to have to bite the bullet and somehow devalue the yuan internally
46:39Now I stress the word internally because I think with this array of capital controls, large foreign exchange reserves, and compliant state banks, they can pretty much achieve what is called a dual circulation between an internal and an external cycle that basically, you know, doesn't change much against the dollar
46:53But the fact is that if they start printing money, which there's every evidence they're..
47:00The gold price goes up right now
47:01When the PBOC began printing money, around the early 2020s, it pretty much coincided with or led to an increase in the gold bullion price because it was China who was buying
47:16Who's the marginal pricer now of gold? It's the Chinese, whether it's the central bank or Chinese retail investors, and that's all about money printing in China
47:25So, the story isn't really about what the US or Europe are going to do
47:30They will follow as well, absolutely certain—they have no choice
47:32But we need to think about China, and ultimately, that is how the system will reflate
47:39I mean, you're going to get more high street inflation, almost certainly, but I think the question is, what scale are we talking about? In the US, are we talking about four to five percent underlying inflation? Probably not ten or twelve percent, but this is quite manageable, I think, within the system
47:45The system won't break down at those levels
47:50 >> Dave, I >> I was going to let Mike talk, but Mike, you're muted
47:56 >> Yeah, go ahead, Dave
48:01I figured you'd have something on that one
48:07 >> Yeah, I mean, look, I, you know, I, it’s first principles
48:12It’s funny
48:18So, this morning we just saw a bad US consumer confidence report, and Bitcoin jumps five hundred dollars
48:24I mean, it doesn't matter, you know, back..
48:28Up over 86 again
48:32You know, it's like the point that you've made, Michael, which is absolutely true, is that Bitcoin trades directionally as the highest beta to perceived monetary inflows, perceived liquidity
48:36Full stop
48:38I can't see a scenario where bonds rally and Bitcoin doesn't rally with them
48:45I can't see it
48:47I mean, it feels like, and I think you're right
48:57I think there will be a bond rally here
49:00I think that there is opportunity to make money, and people leverage up, and it's, look, I work for Two Sigma
49:05I spent a lot of time, you know, five years at one of the larger quantitative hedge funds, although it wasn't one of the larger ones when I started
49:16But what you… Learn, you know, very quickly, is how much leverage can be put into exploiting, you know, some small number of basis point gains, you know, pickups
49:25And so all these yield differentials matter
49:28And when the entire world is moving in the same direction, you see that trend continuing
49:36I think what's going on with bond yields now is cyclical
49:39Yes, there's, it's based on economic growth
49:43But if that economic growth starts to slow, you could see a rip-roaring bond rally
49:49When you see a rip-roaring bond rally, what is that going to mean? Well, you're going to see more monetization when that happens because it's the timing, right? Bessence is a trader if nothing else
49:59And I, I, I just don't—I..
50:01I can't see a scenario where the most important asset, from an unimportant, most, uh, derivative asset to liquidity, doesn't do well in a global bond market rally, which I do think we're, we're, we're even if it's just a relief rally or a dead cat rally, we're due for one fairly soon
50:12So we'll see
50:24Let me ask you, I know Mike, you're about to jump in, but isn't there a world where bonds rally because stocks are crashing, and that makes us wonder what happens to something like Bitcoin, which you think would go down, right, Dave? Saying basically a bond rally, uh, Bitcoin goes up alongside it
50:35>> Uh, you would probably see bonds rally if the stock market had one of those corrections you're talking about, wouldn't you? The number one factor for bonds to rally, for the Fed to ease back on their tightening and switch to easing, is one simple thing: a 10% correction in the S&P 500 stays down there
50:42That's it
50:48Don't fight the Fed
50:54If you're buying Bitcoin, gold, metals, copper, or the stock market, you're fighting the Fed
50:57That's the number one factor, very simple stuff that used to happen, that doesn't happen anymore, that you can't even imagine
51:05>> But then, so I go to Michael there
51:06Is there a world where bonds rally and Bitcoin does not? Because there's a fundamental, uh, you know, divergence there in how Mike and Dave are viewing this
51:12>> Well, I think the fact is, I would argue that if bonds rally, we're living in a collateral-based..
51:20World, and the bulk of collateral is US Treasuries
51:22If you get a strong bond market and bond volatility comes down, you're going to see a big collateral multiplier boosting liquidity
51:30And in that situation, Bitcoin will go up
51:34So I think the question really is, what out of those things breaks? And I can't see it
51:40I think the two will be correlated
51:42I kind of agree with Dave that, you know, if you're going to get this situation, it looks pretty good for, as I say, these monetary inflation hedges because, coming out of the..
51:52the solution, what the bond market's pretty much telling us is that the Federal Reserve is going to have to ease simply because the economy is..
52:00Looking ropey, and you know that's why you have to start looking pretty closely at the long end of the market to see if there are any signs that yields are beginning to peak
52:12I mean, already, if you look at the term premium, they're starting to edge lower, which I think is the first sign of this
52:20I've been saying to our clients, look, what we're facing here is, you know, it may be an odd stock market cycle, but it's certainly a classic bond market cycle
52:27This is actually plain vanilla in bonds, and it looks pretty plain vanilla in commodities too
52:31But cycles go up and cycles come down
52:34>> Isn't there a world where you could both be right, depending on the time frame? >> Time frame's everything
52:39>> Because we all..
52:44Know that correlations will go to one if there's a black swan event, and you know, the stock market drops in a day, or in a week 15 or 20%, or something from a black swan
52:49I think we all probably agree that gold, Bitcoin, everything will drop in that scenario
52:54So, Mike, you could be right there, but then the debasement trade narrative could come back, and depending on how people view Bitcoin, it certainly could do what Dave and Michael are talking about, which is rise with >> it's all a matter of time frame
53:08But there's a big problem with a flock of pigeons versus a couple of doves
53:12We all agree that there are many of these millions of cryptocurrencies that need purging
53:17Something within the next top, >> you know, Dogecoin is number 11
53:19There's some of this that needs purging
53:23We all know this
53:28The only way you can sustain this kind of silliness in market valuations and things that track nothing is when you have a stock market cap at the historic 100-year highs
53:32And that's maybe a question we can ask the group: has there ever been a time in history when these things have been sustained? There's only one example, 1929 in the US, and 1989 in Japan
53:40They last for a while and then they go away
53:43But that's the key thing to remember here: we have not seen the test for Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies
53:48Let me see a stock market go down and stay down for a little while, maybe not make a new high for a year, and then see how this lacks
53:54Now I fully think it's—I really appreciate people who think Bitcoin
53:56The rally will continue in that environment
53:58I wish you luck
53:59Virtually no value-at-risk model will show that, particularly since we launched ETFs
54:02And what did ETFs do? Those of us who are on top of this, when the futures were launched and the ETFs were introduced, they are now in the mainstream
54:10This is not the old days when people like Scott jumped on it at around $100, and maybe even me below $5,000
54:15Now it's a mainstream asset
54:16Its volatility is decreasing
54:18It trades like a stock puppet
54:19And then the key thing to remember is don't underestimate midterm elections
54:26Midterms are coming up, and after we get through the midterms, we're likely to see a major check and balance
54:31So here's what’s going to happen
54:32We've had some pretty prolific spending in this current government and certainly the Biden administration
54:36There’s going to be a major check and balance against that after midterms, potentially a pretty significant blue wave, which is very good for bonds
54:42There's only one key market I can see that we've had pretty significant buying in when they're crying "uncertainty," and that's the US bond market
54:49They're certainly crying in that market, dead wrong on that one, but we had some major sell-offs when they were yelling "caution" in Bitcoin within a year ago, and in all the metals a year ago
54:59The key thing to also look at is copper; just the fact that its 50-day correlation with the stock market is the highest in its history
55:05There is a history on the way up
55:07There are warnings coming on here as we head into volleyball season
55:12>> I just, I, I, I know Dave, you have to jump in, but I just have to say, I, I, I find it hard because I agree and disagree with you so much in the same paragraph
55:17>> Because I, I agree about the pigeons
55:24In New York City, we used to call pigeons flying rats, right? So, if they're eradicated, then by all means, I don't think anyone would mind
55:27I agree with that on the meme coins and the nonsense and the long tail of crypto assets, but Bitcoin is not a pigeon
55:34It’s a falcon or a bald eagle, and it has nothing to do with pigeons, in my opinion
55:37That's where we differ prior to that
55:40>> I don't think that CoinMarketCap number 75 is going to do..
55:44Well, on a debasement trade narrative, if the stock market crashes, but that doesn't mean Bitcoin won't
55:49You know, I know that we diverge on this, but I agree with a lot of what you're saying
55:55There needs to be a purge
55:57I just don't think it's number 75
56:02It's injecting
56:08I probably do too, and it's worth, you know, look, the argument about crypto versus Bitcoin—Michael, just so you can hear it really quickly—is I consider myself a Bitcoin monetary maximalist, but I think there is value in crypto
56:14I think most of the coins have absolutely no value, and some will be winners
56:18It's going to look a lot like the internet bubble, but it's a slow-motion train wreck because, in the internet bubble, what people don't understand is..
56:28Stocks, uh, when they die, they die
56:30Cryptos, there's no carrying cost
56:31>> You know, you want to keep a corporation going, you have to pay to have humans, and it's expensive, and companies go bankrupt, and then the stocks get delisted or even go "boof" on the pink sheets
56:44Although some of the bankrupt stocks trade like, you know, crazy for a while on the OTC, but the truth is they do die
56:51Crypto, you know, FTT still has value—the token from FTX despite everything—because there's no carrying cost for it
56:56The tokens just exist, and people can trade them like they trade Pokémon cards
57:04And so you have this weird thing, and Mike and I both agree that it would be better if these things died
57:09But the truth is there's no If there's no one to sell, then the price doesn't go to zero, right? And so there's no carrying cost
57:15I'm tired of this
57:19>> $90 million fully diluted
57:23>> Yeah, because the people who own it are kind of keeping it in frames, or you know, it's like, you know
57:26>> I've said that to Mike, though—those things are dead because nobody's trading them
57:29They're sitting there
57:31Nobody's going to sell it
57:31Nobody's going to buy it
57:33It's dead with a $90 million market cap
57:35>> People trade them like Pokémon cards
57:36That's what they do
57:37>> But that's why I want to ask you and the whole group, and have our whole audience understand the part about tokenizations
57:42I get it, but I've been so bullish on that space forever—the proliferation of dollars
57:45Because it's such a better way to transact dollars globally
57:47I learned that in Hong Kong almost a decade ago
57:50But when you get a tokenized real value asset with earnings next to Dogecoin on a screen, which one are you going to buy? Which one are you going to short? That's my point
58:00Once this tokenization looks like—>> let me explain tokenization very quickly
58:03All assets will be tokenized
58:04Full stop
58:06Because it's better than paper, but that doesn't mean anything
58:08It's just a question of comparing asset A to asset B
58:12I've been making the point you just made for three years
58:15I will continue to make it
58:18And you're seeing it
58:21I mean, I can tell you, based on — I have stuff in my portfolio that became worthless, that's useless
58:25So, I haven't sold it
58:29I think I have, like, you know, somewhere in the neighborhood of under $50 worth of probably 20 or 30 different things, and who knows what they were worth at their high
58:33I don't know, but they just, I didn't sell them quickly enough, and then they died
58:38I mean, smoking chicken fish tokens is the one I always come back to
58:41I think I put 300 bucks into that, and at one point it was worth 600, and now it's probably worth $6, right? You know, I have a bunch of those things where I got it wrong
58:46There's no question about that
58:50But none of that has a damn thing to do with Bitcoin
58:55None of that has a damn thing to do with Solana or Ethereum
58:58Those are totally different things because those are both fighting for..
58:59To be the base layer of a lot of stuff
59:03Now, what the valuation is, what will happen to those things, are they massively overvalued or are they undervalued? You could have entire shows based on that
59:11But what matters in this market is there was this huge OTC market
59:16I mean, anyone sitting on a trading desk in 2000 or 1999 remembers this
59:22You know, every day somebody would run over to the desk, "Hey, did you see this thing?" You know, Net Taxi, that was one
59:30And then there were a whole bunch of others
59:32There were thousands of these things, and everyone was trading them, and they would go crazy
59:35I mean, you're talking about things that would—there was this company Net Taxi, which was formerly in 1997 Swan Valley
59:40Snowmobiles? I'm not making this up
59:41They renamed it to Net Taxi, claimed to have a payments processing system, and the company went to almost a billion dollars of market cap
59:50Uh, and, you know, I was lucky enough to sell a quarter of my position, you know, halfway up to the high, so I actually made money on this thing
01:00:00But at one point, my paper wealth was huge
01:00:02And then, of course, the whole thing crashed down, right? You know, and it was bankrupt within two years
01:00:05Crypto doesn't have the same discipline because of what happens to companies
01:00:08So, these things don't crash the same way
01:00:10I mean, we saw Bitconnect
01:00:12Remember that one, Scott? >> Oh, yeah
01:00:14>> CoinMarketCap on the site said, "We believe this is a scam." It It had a billion-dollar market cap before it fell back, because of the carrying cost
01:00:25So, yes, there's insanity in the markets
01:00:28Yes, there's crazy stuff
01:00:31But as analysts, we're trying to help people understand where the value pockets are
01:00:34And I don't think that correlation is semi-serious
01:00:37Dogecoin is a different animal
01:00:40I don't own any, or if I do, it's a dog in a portfolio
01:00:45I don't understand it, but I do see what it is
01:00:47I think the model for Dogecoin is like Pokémon cards or baseball cards
01:00:53I think that's what you're looking at
01:00:56>> Collectibles
01:00:59That's me
01:01:02Well, I honestly, I actually own some because I was at a dinner table with my son and a bunch of others
01:01:06Friends, years ago, we were just putting hundreds of dollars in, and there was just a bar, you know, buy, and it was fun, but I just want to point out, you know, the same chart syndrome
01:01:17They just go up together, they go down together, with Bitcoin, most of the altcoins
01:01:20I'm just pointing out facts
01:01:22I know, I know Bitcoin's out there; I got to get it
01:01:25But they do have the same chart syndrome, >> right? But there are just two things, and then I want Michael to wrap us up
01:01:32But, uh, two things are that there are worlds where altcoins crash and Bitcoin goes up
01:01:33In fact, like if Bitcoin rips, historically, you see a major rise in Bitcoin dominance and a major fall in altcoin valuations versus Bitcoin
01:01:38So that does happen
01:01:40I will tell you that
01:01:43What's going to solve this big problem largely, and we're seeing it already, is that all of those useless tokens with market caps are going to be liquidated via AI hacks because there's nobody with a security budget paying attention, and that's going to clean itself out, sadly
01:01:58If you're holding a token that's number 200 and doesn't have a team working on it, eventually, like all of these we've been seeing over the past few months, somebody's just going to exploit it, steal four or five million, it's going to trend towards zero, and that'll be the end of it
01:02:13But, Michael, yeah, Michael, I would love your final thoughts, I guess, maybe on the Bitcoin and crypto side since that's where we're at, and then we'll..
01:02:20Well, uh, we'll move on to next week
01:02:24>> Well, I think, as Warren Buffett said, when the liquidity tide goes out, you see who's swimming naked
01:02:29And I think you can see that probably with a whole raft of these, uh, these cryptocurrencies
01:02:33That's going to be plain
01:02:35Uh, but I come back to the point that you've got to separate cycle from trend
01:02:38Um, I think the trend is towards monetary inflation
01:02:40I think that's inevitable
01:02:42Whichever country, whichever region you look at, governments just simply can't afford to tax us anymore
01:02:47And the bond markets are exercising a discipline, which means they've got to print money
01:02:53Uh, and that's a fact
01:02:55And, uh, that means China, it means Europe, it means the US, uh, everybody has got to
01:02:58Inflation over the medium term, but that's a progressively worrying backdrop
01:03:03And it may mean that monetary inflation is going up 7 to 8% per annum or at that sort of pace
01:03:09And I think that's the trend we've got to start looking at
01:03:11But make no mistake, as Mike says, there's a cycle we have to recognize
01:03:15And that cycle is telling us, in many cases, that the bond markets are the truth
01:03:19And they're telling us that we're somewhere near the peak
01:03:21Yields have picked up
01:03:23And bond markets, on a 12-month view, look pretty attractive to me, much more than stocks
01:03:27Stocks are in a bubble
01:03:29I don't know when they're going to break, but they will break
01:03:33And, regarding the AI thing, I mean, I'm old enough to remember
01:03:37Global Crossing, and just look what happened there
01:03:40The fiber optic market—I mean, that was the darling of Wall Street, uh, what was it, uh, well, 20 years ago probably now
01:03:46But, you know, what happened to fiber optic prices? They went down 80% because of competition, and within five years, Global Crossing was in Chapter 11
01:03:54And, um, let's not single out any particular AI company, but, um, you know, the switching cost between these is actually pretty low, so at the end of the day, I think there are problems ahead for many of these stocks
01:04:06And therefore, I'd be very wary about them on a one- to two-year view
01:04:10I think bonds look a lot safer, and I'd be thinking of bonds, but I'd be buying back into monetary inflation hedges with alacrity after
01:04:18Any selloff
01:04:20It would be an opportunity to buy if these things come down, not to sell them
01:04:24>> You guys are all extremely intelligent
01:04:27I'm humbled to be able to sit here with you, and all I hear is that it's all about time frame once again
01:04:35Buy bonds, but not like Mike says forever—buy them for 12 months and rotate back into Bitcoin, which Mike thinks will be going to $10,000
01:04:41Yeah, I got it
01:04:42So, we have a lot of opinions on the same topics, but I, I, you know, I'm an optimist, so I hear the agreements more than I hear the disagreements, and there are quite a few in there
01:04:52Michael, thank you so much for joining us today
01:04:54You are always welcome back anytime, if you'll have us
01:04:56>> Great pleasure, John
01:04:58Thank you
01:05:00>> And Dave and Mike, as always, thank you for the banter and for the perspective
01:05:02We'll see you guys next week
01:05:04Bye, everyone
01:05:05>> That's dope
01:05:05Hey, let's do